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Abortion is murder at anytime

lnosbourne 6 Feb 19

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When did scientists in general claim they knew when life begins? First I've heard of it. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If you think you know the answer to the question, "when does life begin?", you are practicing idealogical dogma, not science. Objectively, an honest scientist would tell the truth and say he or she doesn't know or isn't sure. Science, as yet, cannot give a satisfactory answer to this question.


If your are against abortion, but do not believe in using contraception (including full insurance coverage), don't believe in teaching comprehensive science-based sexual education in school (no more abstinence-only), and don't believe in allowing same-sex couples or single parents to adopt - you are not pro-life, you only want to control women's bodies.


Science is only what we know now. It changes all the time. Life starts at conception. We now know for a fact when the sperm meets the egg. There is a flash of light. That is extraordinary.
Science also proves masks don't work to stop the spread of anything. A mask cannot stop particles that are microscopic on nature.
People hang onto whatever fits the narrative of their belief. If they choose to murder a baby. They justify it by saying it's just a clump of cells and has no value.
Yet these are the same people who will claim to do everything for the children.
You also can't trust any science that is getting there funding from people that want a certain result. Scientists are people to. Some immoral and willing to say anything to keep funding, and those that actually search for the truth. Unfortunately those who seek the truth are silenced and ostracized.
Always follow who is financing the study. Like planned parenthood is not going to hire a scientist who says life begins at conception. Obviously the CDC which is a private corporation is for the machine. They don't anything that contradicts what the politicians and elite want published.
Sad fact of today, science is the new religion, and common sense and real science is thrown out the window for propaganda and control.


What about retroactive abortion, such as in the case of Joe Biden?


2 cells do not a human make, nor 4 nor 8 nor is... so apart from the fact that scientists say life begins at conception... human life per se doesn't. You need to understand their concept or definition of life and human .

I understand that life and human are two different things, and the OP never used the word human, so why did you bring it up?

Ok mr science teacher and grim reaper

@lnosbourne don't like the facts ? don't start the topic .

@Lightman Facts are different from feelings, just a hunch your a lefty

@lnosbourne Not as such science is science facts are facts and politics is politics... for me politics doesn't enter into the abortion debate .
Do you consider miscarriage murder ? It can , after all, occur anytime after conception Do you think a viable human has no brain and or no heart? These are not there at conception.

So at what point does human life start?
8 weeks, 14 weeks , 26 weeks, 32 weeks, 40?

@MassDebater I brought it up because anti-abortionists do not accept that they are 2 different things.

@MassDebater, @Hanno Here is another opinion addressing your question.
Why life does not begin at conception?
No new life is formed — the egg and the sperm were already alive — and fertilization is not instantaneous. Nearly 48 hours pass from the time sperm first bind to the outside of the zona pellucida, the human eggshell, until the first cell division of the fertilized egg.
Just for starters.
Also there is no certainty that a fertilized egg will make it full term, through the embryo stage to the fetus stage and to the successful delivery of a baby.
How far back would you like to take it... is masturbation by males a sin after all they simply waste their sperm and deny it a chance to fertilize and egg.
What about deliberately taking contraception?
Pregnancy doesn't start the day you have sex — it can take up to six days after sex for the sperm and egg to join and form a fertilized egg. Then, it can take three to four days for the fertilized egg to completely implant itself in the lining of the uterus.
So is taking the "abortion" pill murder?

@Lightman So you were arguing something you assume people believe, but didn't say here? So, like, an assumed strawman...

Well feel free to pretend I'm an "anti-abortionist" who does accept they are two different things.

To answer your question we have to define what "life" is. I'm curious to know what yours is that distinguishes between those things you mentioned.

However I'll also give you a hint: I'm going to be using the potentiality argument.

You lost me at "Do you consider miscarriage murder?" I know of no one that would consider that murder. By definition, murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another". We can all debate until we are blue in the face over the exact moment that the combined egg and sperm becomes a "human being" but I have no idea why you would bring miscarriage into the argument.

@Hanno A miscarriage is nature at work, bigger and more powerful than human choice, A miscarriage is not murder. Late term abortion because of a change of mind is certainly murder.

@Forra888 LOL So now you move the goalposts to late term abortion.
Personally I'm against it.

@Shortstuff 2 cells are not a human etc, etc, etc... my point was the ridiculous arguments being used.

@Lightman This is my first comment on this post mate, I have NOT changed any goalposts or anything like that, get your facts right, you sound angry, hateful and ignorant of science and facts. It is my well thought out view and conscience on this matter. I am a loving father of 3 beautiful, grownup and well educated, working, tax paying children. I really do get it. I even delivered my very first child myself, I was the very first human to physically touch my beautiful and precious child in this outside world and handed her to my beautiful and precious wives exhausted chest, we wept with pride, love and unbelievable gratitude. 10 years later we were forced to abort our 3rd child, it was devastating and almost tore us apart with guilt, confusion and sadness, (it was done on medical advise and borderline early). WakeTF up and get SOME value for human life. Very early abortion for a valid reason (personal or not) is very different to late abortion because of a change of mind. Late term pregnancies have a heart beat, they absorb and consume food to live, they need oxygen to live, they shit and piss, they move, they make noises and more, meaning the body is genuinely processing everything you do to live. Is it to late to abort you and your thinking?? I'm guessing you would say NO to that. Late term abortions for no real reason because of a change of mind is certainly murder and it would be a callous, self centred and confused person to do so.

@Forra888 Here Here, Well Said, Well Spoken!

@Genghis Thanx Genghis!

@Forra888 YOu were the first one here changing the argument to late term abortion... that was my point... that is moving the goalposts sunnyboy.
So gee I guess my facts were right eh...
I'm not angry hateful or ignorant... perhaps you need to stop looking in the mirror.
Here's one for you.
If one of your beautiful daughters was brutally raped and fell pregnant would you allow her to have an abortion or would you make her carry the result of that rape around in her for 9 months. Perhaps doing her permanent mental problems.

Never said anything about miscarriage ... you confuse me with lightman.

Miscarriage happens because the embryo is not viable or the mother is incapable to complete the pregnancy.

Nothing to do with killing potential health humans.
The question of when you are “alive” is essential to the discussion.

@Forra888, @Lightman
Very simple. If the mom is to suffer damage it becomes a medical issue. And yes, mental health is a medical issue.
Each case demands its own evaluation and decision.


Anyway, I suspect Lightman and I have very similar views on abortion.

We are just not stating it properly.

@Hanno Quote from you "The question of when you are “alive” is essential to the discussion."
Are you questioning if late term pregnancies are alive????? If you are questioning that, I have nothing else to say to such an ignorant, naive imbecile as yrself. Science, facts and reality will confirm they are alive, breathing and kicking inside the tummy yr imbecile. Just ask ANY pregnant woman if their baby is alive or if it is life.

@Hanno you pathetic, nit pick, hair splitting dumbness, we can go no further with this argument. You honestly are void of intelligence as far as I can see from your pathetic answers.

@Hanno I don't understand all your differing and fence jumping thinking mate, you are going around in circles and progress on this subject with you is useless to even attempt. Get your story straight before you respond to me. Go back and read your differing opinions and arguments

@Hanno Hanno, I've walked away and settled with my frustration at your varying logics that are all over place. I apologise for names, labels etc, at the time they were descriptions that fizzed up to over flow. I do not intend to label or dis you. I just can not keep up with you and your varying thinking mate.

Mmm... judging someone from a simple question when you have actually no idea what I believe or my views... now that is ignorant.

You must be a clairvoyant to come to those conclusions from a the few comments I made.... or everything you just accused me of...

@Hanno I note certain people avoiding addressing my questions.
well let me once more make clear to them the one salient point here...
The topic states "Abortion is murder at any time."
I have addressed that.
It is clearly incorrect.
Murder BTW is...
Learn to pronounce
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

I note... Unlawful and human being... the main point I have patently made clear.

Like I said before, I think our views on abortion is very similar. I don’t have much issue with your question, except “is miscarriage murder” that serves no purpose.
And hence my questions to you.
You are for early abortion, but against late abortion?
Exactly when does early stop and late begins?

@Hanno I answered that already and it relates to miscarriage and murder.
They can't call all abortions murder and not include miscarriage.

Interesting that you note how “some people avoid answering questions” when you yourself do exactly that.
You did not answer the question at all.

You present a red herring (miscarriage) which you don’t explain in order to avoid answering the question.

Miscarriage had nothing to do with murder, per your definition above.

And wtf learn to pronounce has to do with a written forum, only you would know.

@Hanno Actually I don't... If the answer is there already or is as obvious as the nose on your face I see no reason to repeat myself.
Not my fault you don't get the miscarriage argument.
I do so do many others and I've never had to explain it to anyone before.
And I don't know what "pronounce" has to do with anything.

@Hanno Ok one more time for those who cannot see the obvious...
"Miscarriage had nothing to do with murder, per your definition above."
That is the point... do you get it yet?
That a miscarriage is not murder... and so neither is abortion.
Do you get it yet?
A miscarriage or an aborted pregnancy, it is in fact an abortion, a natural abortion so why would you call a medical abortion murder. Miscarriage or a natural abortion can occur any time after conception and usually results in the abortion of a few cells that are not even a viable human life as yet. SO murder.?
Not on your Nelly.
Do you get it yet?
It is not unlawful most places, and is not usually done late term unless the life of the mother is at risk.
Do you get it yet?
One last time then... Miscarriage has nothing to do with murder... neither does abortion.
Seems to me you simply failed to look at what I said from the right direction...
That is hardly my fault... why would anyone expect to have to explain the bleeding obvious.

Err... read your own post. You told me to learn to pronounce murder. Just scroll up... it is right there.

Thanks, you finally started to answer the question.
Without that start the next questions can’t come.

Let’s start then. Murder, as you so rightly defined, is the premeditated murder of one human by another.
What part of miscarriage is premeditated? None of it.
What part of miscarriage is done by one human to another? None of it.
The embryo is either not viable and releases hormones to tell the body that the body detects and then miscarry, or the uterus is unable to complete the pregnancy and miscarry.

Abortion on the other hand is the premeditated killing of an unborn fetus/baby depending on stage of development.

Nothing of miscarriage relates to murder, according to your definition, and any analogy you are trying to draw is flawed.

Then, my twins were born at 32 weeks. If they were aborted at 31 weeks, not murder. If killed at 33 weeks murder.

My son was born at 39 weeks. If he was killed at 38 weeks, not murder.

So being six weeks further developed than his sisters, makes him less human or alive just because he was not born yet?

Please explain why it is ok to kill a much further developed baby just because he was not born, than his less developed sisters.

I am talking about the moral viewpoint here.
Medical abortions are a seperate issue.

@Hanno Now you are being ridiculous... you want my family history with this hmmmm
You know I'm against abortion late in the term... you carry a baby for months they as far as I'm concerned unless your life is in danger you can carry it full term and have it adopted.
Now stop already with the abject stupidity... and stop wasting my time.
How moronic can you be hanno.

@Hanno I didn't tell you that at all how dumb are you.....?

@Hanno LOL
You idiot its a cut and paste from a dictionary...
Its a dictionary definition... have you never seen dictionary definitions?
Try googling murder and see what comes up you goose.


Haha... you cannot answer my simple questions and then you cannot concede you were wrong?

So you start ad hominem insults on me because you cannot backup your posts?

And you call me dumb?

Anyone with reasonable intelligence or someone who realises he said something stupid would have spent the 20 seconds to explain himself or concede he said something that may not be entirely correct.

lol... you and @forra888 are cut from the same cloth.

Let’s ignore your flawed miscarriage/murder analogy.
You still have not answered the most simple things of questions... what is early and what is late in a pregnancy. You stated 2 cells is not a human... however late abortions are wrong... so at some point there is the turning point between just cells and human. When is that?

The answer is of course very simple. However unless you consider all these questions and worked them through you will fail to answer it everytime.

@Hanno Common sense is my back up, something your left slant would not understand. You're argument is all over place, you are inconsistent and simply want to argue logic, common sense and nit pick anything to get off the actual subject then throw that accusation out at others. I'm done trying to get through to you, you have little to know value of life and reality. End of story. You are a waste of my good time. You're words are this, quote " unless you consider all these questions and worked them through you will fail to answer it everytime." You have admitted that regardless of what we say, you are determined make any progress fail, why would anyone waste their intellect and time discussing and arguing with a loser?? Cheers mate. Please don't breed.

@Forra888 Gotta say... there is no Left/Right slant in a medical procedure.

@Hanno seems you just can't admit you didn't understand my point you complain and I go to great lengths to slowly explain it to uou and still you just can't admit you got it wrong.
You say we are both on the same side of this argument yet you continue to attack me over nothing.
stop wasting my time...

@Lightman BULLSHIT! I did NOT say, at ANY time we are on the same side of this argument. Again the leftie empty heads reinterpret a persons words to be an actual lie. Fck off mate, your lies and pathetic tit for tat, air head bull shit annoys me. Which I believe in your immaturity you would enjoy. You Bring nothing constructive, just childish bouncing around looking for pathetic and technical loop holes in any argument you can. Smile and go away stupid boy.

@Forra888 I didn't say you did... I was answering hanno
I only said to you its not about left and right
I know you are blinkered on this subject you couldn't even answer my question to you previously
I take it that when you sober up you'll apologise... so don't bother

@Lightman Mate, i can't keep up with you two and the varying responses. The fact is, we are NOT debating the subject matter (abortion) any longer, we are attacking each other (the 3 of us) personally and you two are nit picking and over disecting minor aspects of the comments I type. My thoughts on this are CLEAR. I am not indulging in this type of slather throwing and useless "he saids, you said" womanly style of arguing. I'm moving on, iIf you have ANY questions re-read my posts. There is so much more to do that adds value to my day other than this pathetic circle you have sent this into. My posts are quite clear, use them. We obviously disagree. I do not think like you and have differing respects on this issue. Cheers


Hilarious... we have varying responses because we are two different people!
You got furious and insulted me because you can’t keep track who said what and got all emotional on us.

Several times now you have responded to me about something Lightman said, and then responded to Lightman about something I said.

Your frustrations are all in your head because you cannot follow the conversation.
Try to keep track who said what and you won’t get so emotional.


I most definitely don’t understand your reasoning. That is why I asked for clarification and asked question to understand.

In response you insulted me. I expected that from someone like Forra, but not you.

So there is really just two simple questions:
If you state that natural abortion (miscarriage) is the same as intentional human abortion... because both kills the unborn... then you can also reason that cancer and murder is the same because it kills humans... and hence murder is not murder.

You see the massive flaw in your argument?

You may argue that the outcome of miscarriage and abortion is the same (as is cancer and murder), however they are not the same now are they?
There is a probability that the fetus will not survive and it decreases during pregnancy. However there is also a probability you will not survive the next year due to cancer, stroke, heart attack etc...
So just as I cannot them claim that murder is OK because you might die during the next months, so you cannot claim that abortion is ok because the foetus may not survive potentially.
It is of course something you take into consideration when deciding when to do a real medical abortion for sound medical reasons, hence the medical standard for early abortions are different to late abortions.

So to conclude:
The one involves premeditated action as you correctly copied and pasted and the other not.
So how do you justify that abortion (murder) is ok because miscarriage (cancer) happens?

Then second question:
You stated early foetus is not human and therefore can be aborted... And later you should not be able to abort because some other reason you have not disclosed .
The clarification I wanted was when is the turning point when the foetus is just cells and you can abort and when is it a baby and you should not.

Very simple questions, and fair questions considering the statements you made. would take you seconds to answer unless you actually don’t know the answers.
I really only care about the second question if the first is too hard.

@Hanno nah... I've never been the one calling abortion... natural or otherwise MURDER.
But I also don't see sense in aborting a pregnancy when it is almost full term except for medical reasons.
My sister had a dead child/baby/fetus (your pick) in her body for 8 weeks and she and the drs knew it was dead . If it was me I'd have been distressed and wanting it removed... aborted immediately. Can't think of many things worse.

My wife had a dead boy in her for a week.. could not get a legal abortion done.... wanted to burn the hospital down... they just told her let nature take its course. How cruel is that? In the end they still did the abortion to get the dead material out... after she had to go through the trauma of giving birth to a dead baby.
Technically it was not an abortion since it was a miscarriage, however the procedure is the same and we are still in the Middle Ages apparently.

Big fan of medical abortion for valid medical reasons, however that is a whole new can of worms I don’t wanted to discuss.
Not so much killing viable and living babies just because you can’t be responsible.

And hence the point I tried to make however you refuse to answer the question that leads to the answer we all seek.

@Hanno Seems we share a common experience.
BTw I did answer your question.
You need to stop backsliding.

Like I said twice before, I suspect you and I have in practice the same views on the matter.

I was trying to show you the reasoning why this is so.

I never called abortion murder since that depends on the situation.
Just like killing another human being (a born one that is) is not necessarily murder.

Therefore the whole question of abortion can be simplified, however you need to consider the questions I raised.
It does not help I tell you that life from the moment of DNA formation when gametes fuse to the moment of death is a continuum and therefore there is no early or late pregnancy to justify when it is ok or not to end it. Just as there is no early or late age of life to justify killing people.
You need to answer the questions to yourself and then get to a point where you can discuss these things once you get to the logical completion of your thoughts.

In the mean time you can continue to call people dumb who point out the flaws in you argument or who disagree with you.

Until you actually answer these questions to yourself, not me, I will just, what did you call it? Ah backslide till then.

@Hanno I'm fine with my logic and so are most people.
Life doesn't mean a viable human life... so no conception does not mean there will be oor is a viable human life. An egg is life a sperm is life but they will never be considered viable human beings.
Many pregnancies as we both know do not go full term and are terminated naturally or by medical intervention... neither of which is murder.
the topic says all abortion is murder... I disagree.

Ok, I agree that ALL abortions are not murder, just as ALL killings of born humans are not murder either.
Is abortion never murder, or is it sometimes murder under certain conditions?

I am just curious and you can stop answering my questions anytime.


What a great, insightful way to put this across simply. Thanx 4 that!

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