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Sure are alot of traitor and hypocrite politicians in the US. The following article tells me all I need to know about the progressives and what sell-outs they are. Need I remind the progressive crowd that Israel wasn't responsible for 9/11, that was those "tolerant" Muslims who carried out acts of terror on that day. Islam is no peaceful religion, and while the Israelis are far from being innocent too, you don't see Israel trying to wipe out every other ethnic/culture groups out there who don't believe in the religion of Judaism, but Islam sure calls for the annihilation of "infidels". The Israelis have faced consistent persecution at the hands of the Palestinians for years now, small wonder why some Israelis get aggressive.

Bottom line is, if you want to point the finger at Israel for human rights violations, fair enough, just so long as you hold the Palestinians accountable too for their many atrocities against human rights.

Bernie Sanders and his fellow progressives raise alarms about 'Israeli extremists' amid violence against Palestinians-
[newsweek.com]

SpikeTalon 9 May 9
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1

Berny and the other progressives are not serious, they are merely making noises for a part of their constituency. All politicians get money from Israel in some fashion or another; all lobbied by the same Israel lobby groups.

2

Keyword: extremists.
When we talk of a population without that critical key word, we are committing the logical fallacy of hasty generalization.

With that in mind, it can entirely be the case that there be Israeli extremism, Islamic extremism, American extremism, white extremism, black extremism, excetera.

The key is they do not represent the majority but rather a minority... Except when you don't like that population in which case you will take the minority to represent that majority. 😉

I do not deny their are extremists in the Israeli ranks and even stated above I do not for one moment believe they are innocent, but Israel does not seek to exterminate everyone that does not accept Judaism, which is more than what I could say for the Palestinians. Again, not all Palestinians are murderous and evil either, but the religion of Islam itself is a serious concern though.

That aside, I think that's an issue for Israel and the Palestinians to work out and come to some sort of peaceful resolution, and when there is no shortage of blame to go around it is wrong to accuse only one side of committing human rights violations there.

@SpikeTalon

but Israel does not seek to exterminate everyone that does not accept Judaism, which is more than what I could say for the Palestinians.

I don't think you can reasonably say that Palestinians seek to exterminate everyone that doesn't accept their brand of religion either. Consider the number of Palestinians in the US.. no more or less violent then non-Muslims. Consider the number of Palestinians in the Middle East... about 1M... but we don't have 1M Jihadists.

I agree that there is PLENTY of blame to go around. My problem is that it's exactly the "who gets more blame" game that is responsible for there being no progress. There is no equity in warfare... there is no way that an Israeli evil committed on palestine can be "balanced out" by a Palestinian evil committed on Israel. Until both sides are willing to bury the hatchet "as is", they will both continue to fight each other over slights centuries old and issues long since forgotten.

@TheMiddleWay My point was there are more of them than the Israelis, I don't see any Jews trying to exterminate non-Jews over religious views. I can reasonably say such, and we are/have been in a war with Islamic terrorist factions for years now.

Glad you feel that way, and that's how it should be, blame being evenly applied to both parties involved, and I don't think America should even be taking sides on that conflict being both sides are in the wrong.

1

You make a false equivalence here. Just because people speak out against an atrocity committed by a certain group of extremists doesn't equate to them automatically supporting extremists on the other side. If I speak out against "wokeness," whatever that is, that doesn't equate to being a white supremacist. I can be against both.

No false equivalence, I only said the truth and some people do not like the truth. There is no shortage of blame to go around there, both Israelis and Palestinians have committed heinous acts against each other, but it's plain wrong to point the finger at only one side and act as though there are no extremist factions on the side you are sticking up for. Also, one could not begin to compare wokeness with white supremacy, and the Israel/Palestine conflict has seen violence whereas the former has not and is not considered an armed conflict of the sorts. Bernie Sanders and some of his fellow Democrat politicians clearly took a stand against the Israelis, pointing the finger at them while conveniently ignoring the atrocities the Palestinians have committed, and that's what I took issue with. If said Democrat politicians strived to be truly fair, then they would come out and say both sides have committed vile acts against each other, in which case there would have been no complaints from me. What's so wrong with that, just being fair and condemn both sides?

@SpikeTalon I don't think that's true. These politicians were simply commenting on a specific event that happened at a specific time, that happened to a specific set of people. If I comment on a specific event, I feel no obligation to include other events or actions by others that would relieve some perceived bias on my part. What you have succeeded in doing is placing beliefs in the minds of these politicians that there is no reason to believe exist. There is no reason to believe that because people criticize one group at a specific time that they automatically support the other.

@TyKC I've no qualms with said politicians making statements on certain world events, I only take issue with the fact their concern is rather one-sided. I did no such thing, merely commented on based on what the politicians themselves said. If you researched some of the remarks certain Democrat politicians made on that matter, they were anything short of totally supporting the Palestinians, making no exceptions for obvious Palestinian terror cells. Certain members of "the Squad" have made remarks in the past that were considered anti-semitic, and the Democrat Party as a whole has not exactly been sympathetic towards the Israelis to say the least.

@SpikeTalon I don't think that's true. What these politicians commented on were perceived human rights violations, which are independent of race, culture or creed. Their comments have nothing to do with violations against a certain group. You speak as though only democrats are outraged by what took place. Where is the outrage or comments by conservative politicians? In the article there was not one reference to any comment made by a conservative politician. Does that mean they support what's going on? Were all conservative politicians silent on this issue? According to your logic, that would make conservative politicians biased toward the Palestinians. So, they are no better than the democratic politicians. Why are you not outraged about that?

@TyKC There are human rights violations taking place on both sides of that conflict, so why are some Democrat politicians only focusing on the perceived evils being carried out by the Israelis while completely ignoring what the Palestinians do? Israel has been a longtime ally of the US, the other side certainly isn't and for good reason.

You know what you mentioned in your previous comment, here I'll copy a portion of what you previously said- If I comment on a specific event, I feel no obligation to include other events or actions by others that would relieve some perceived bias on my part. Now you're doing the exact thing you had accused me of doing by involving conservative politicians, this post had nothing to do with them, that could be a topic for another post maybe. The Republicans support Israel (most of them anyway) and with good reason one of which I mentioned above, and view what's happening as a result of consistently trying to wipe the Israelis off the map. Now Israel is fighting back and Democrat politicians are crying foul. No such bias from the Republicans by the way, regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict the US has one ally and one enemy, and Israel isn't trying to annihilate the US, so there is no bias in being opposed to an enemy that desires to see you dead. I'm not outraged by any Republicans on that as they are mostly doing the right thing by keeping the allies and enemies in check.

Sorry, but I do and will take issue with any fellow Americans who backs radical factions that wish to see Americans die. That's the progressive way, victimize a radical enemy and villainize the ally. I'll gladly point the finger at Republicans when they are wrong, but they aren't wrong when it comes to that conflict.

@SpikeTalon You said, "There are human rights violations taking place on both sides of that conflict, so why are some Democrat politicians only focusing on the perceived evils being carried out by the Israelis while completely ignoring what the Palestinians do?" Not true in this particular instance. The politicians in the article were commenting on Palestinians being removed from their homes and not allowed to worship freely. The comments were not about the broader conflict. Virtually all of these politicians understand that there has to be a political solution to the broader conflict, not a military one and that both sides have committed atrocities.

The kinds of atrocities, if true, mentioned in the article, are not examples of "fighting back." These acts are unacceptable even in war. This not a question of taking sides. This is a question of human dignity. Whether these acts are committed by Israelis or Palestinians is irrelevant. I can be for Israeli independence and still criticize them when they commit wrongs. And that's what the politicians were doing in the article. They were simply commenting on perceive wrongs. What you are saying is that when Palestinians commit the same or similar atrocities that those same politician would be silent or support them, just as the conservative politicians are now silent. I just don't think that's true. These politicians would and should call out any group who commit these kinds of acts.

If the issue becomes about who committed the act rather than the act itself, then this kind of thinking leads to a "if you are not with me, you are against me" philosophy. And this is just the type of thinking that led to 6M Jews being exterminated by the Nazis, i.e. "if you don't hate Jews, then you are not German and a traitor." And this is just the type of thinking you seem to be advocating, i.e., "if you are not for the Israelis, if you criticize their acts, you are against them and with the other side." Whether or not you believe that Palestinians would like to kill all Americans does not justify inhuman acts against them else you become just as bad as they are.

@TyKC That is true, that's what the whole article was about, certain Democrat politicians pointing the finger at Israel while ignoring the atrocities committed by the other side. No one is denying both sides have blood on their hands, but it's plain wrong to ignore the human rights violations at the hands of Hamas.

Who gets to determine what is moral and what isn't in war? Again, I'm not denying Israel has committed heinous acts against Palestinians, I have a problem with our politicians taking sides, and I could make a case that both sides are committing such vile acts as a form of retribution. Why is it acceptable to accuse one knowing full well both sides are guilty? I don't mind politicians commenting on what's wrong there, only the fact they criticized only the one side. I will have to disagree with you as well on that, sorry I don't see many Democrats these days calling out the Palestinians like they do with Israel.

Please read my comments carefully, I am advocating for no such thing as you had suggested, and firmly believe both sides in that conflict are wrong and by no means am I a blind supporter of Israel. With that said, at times can't say I blame the Israeli's for certain actions they've taken knowing what they have been through during the conflicts in the middle east, and nothing about war is meant to be fair. You want to point the finger at Israel, fair enough, just so long as you have room for criticism for the Palestinians too, that is the fair approach. You said- Whether or not you believe that Palestinians would like to kill all Americans does not justify inhuman acts against them else you become just as bad as they are. Now... how pray tell do you suppose society as a whole should deal with a certain group of radicals who want to kill anyone who does not accept Islam as the one true religion? Do we pray such people away (that certainly won't work)? Do we use harsh language against the terrorists? As if that would work either. Ignoring them won't solve anything either, as the terrorists would continue their self-righteous murder sprees. Force, or more appropriately self defense is the only reasonable option in dealing with such radicals, and I do not care if that by chance doesn't sit well with you, some paths in life are not pleasant but some folks leave you no choice though. Those that commit inhuman acts against others care not about your softer approach to their heinous acts, they will take advantage of you too, and Hamas must be laughing their posteriors off knowing how many Americans they inadvertantly get on their side. By the way, using force against such individuals does not make me as bad as them, keep in mind I'm not the one who has a problem with them, they have a problem with me for being what they perceive to be an "infidel". I'd prefer to live in peace, but those who cannot abide by the same will then be met with force of the same nature, as I will not stand idly by and let them take advantage (just as the Israelis are doing), no matter how unpleasant the situation may be to me.

@SpikeTalon By ranting and raving only about the sins of the Islamic terrorist and failing to mention the atrocities of domestic terrorists such a Timothy McVeigh, you commit the same sin as you are accusing the Democratic politicians of committing. By failing to be balanced and fair, I must conclude that you are biased against people of color.

@TyKC I sometimes wonder why I bother replying to you? I'll repeat once again... I am not denying that the Israelis have committed human rights violations against Palestinians, as they have. I took issue with the rather one-sided argument from some Democrat politicians and those who sided with them, as it is wrong to only point the finger at the one side when there is no shortage of blame to go around. In other words, I am trying to be fair and balanced regarding the middle east conflict and suggest that our politicians do the same, assuming they have any sense of what's fair and just. Cripes, is that really asking for that much, for the politicians to maybe take a neutral stance on that matter being both sides can and have been aggressive towards one another?

I took issue as soon as certain Democrat politicians insisted that Israel were the only ones in the wrong. Wouldn't you say it's bad enough that alot of Republicans are diehard pro Israel? Then the other major US political party takes sides with the opposing view, and where exactly do we gain anywhere, when do two wrongs ever make a right? I'm no advocate for Israel, but I will speak up when I see one narrative being pushed and the other side of the story is being ignored, nothing fair or balanced about that.

In case you hadn't noticed, the original topic of this post had absolutely nothing to do with Timothy McVeigh, so I've not the slightest clue as to why you brought his name up, and I rather doubt there would be many on here who would disagree with you on McVeigh being a terrorist, he was and an evil human being at that. Again, how's about pointing out the flaws in both sides of the middle east conflict being there is no shortage of blame to go around? That would be the fair and balanced approach and perhaps maybe just maybe we might make some meaningful progress by taking that route.

Please point out where I directly labeled or called you insulting names, or made crude accusations on your character? Hint hint, I didn't, so that's what you folks do when you refuse to realize the other individual's point of view, you hurl baseless accusations at them? Remind me again who here is ranting and raving about? I'm not the one here using the "you must be a racist/biased" card. That's got to be a progressive left thing, accusing someone of being racist or biased against others just because you didn't like what they had to say. Regardless of what you may believe about my character, I do strive to be fair, even if I don't always succeed at such I still do try all the same. Since you decided to get personal with me there by accusing me of something vile, and being that I do like to be fair with everyone, I arrived to a conclusion regarding the nature of your character too. That is, based on some of what you mentioned I conclude you must be anti-semitic, as anyone who is so vehemently against Israel as you are must surely be biased in some way. See, accusations can work both ways, and if by chance you get upset with my accusation against your character, you might want to stop and consider what you said to me in your above reply as that hardly constituted a fair or humanist approach to the matter.

@SpikeTalon Oh, I agree that the argument that I made against you in my previous comment is completely ridiculous. I was simply pointing out that it was exactly the same argument that you were making against the democratic politicians. I simply substituted "radical Islamic Terrorist" for the Palestinians and "Domestic Terrorists" for the Israelis. The argument and the logic is the same either way. It doesn't make any sense no matter what names you substitute. It's same argument. It doesn't make sense either way. Just because conservative politicians didn't comment or commented about Hamas shooting missiles at Tel Aviv doesn't mean they are bias against the Palestinians.

@TyKC So in other words, you find it objectionable that I desire a fair argument, one that would criticize both sides in that conflict as opposed to the argument the Democrats (and Republicans) maintained, only going after the one side? That may not make sense to you perhaps, but it surely would to those who don't particularly care about taking sides. As for the last part there regarding conservatives, I never said they were biased against the Palestinians for not commenting on such, so not sure why you brought that up?

You've nothing to say about your crude assumption on my character, eh? As if such assumptions are good to have while trying to debate someone in an effort to get them to understand your point of view. Not that I'm surprised though. Saw you had also commented on my post about Ralph Northam still being the Governor of Virginia even after his blackface/KKK scandal. Can't wait to get to that one, I'm sure it's a doozy...

@SpikeTalon No I find it objectionable that if I make a comment supporting the actions of a certain group, that it necessarily follows that I'm biased against the opposing group. I was simply pointing out the logical fallacy in that argument.

Yes, I did say something about my crude assumption on your character. I said that the argument that I made against you in my previous comment is completely ridiculous.

@TyKC That doesn't make one biased per se by simply supporting one side, that's not exactly being fair though knowing that both sides are technically wrong. The original post did not accuse you of such, the condemnation was directed towards certain Democrat politicians. Until you had expressed your opinion on the matter, I didn't have the slightest clue who you did or didn't back there. My concern was not necessarily one of bias, it was one of particular individuals not reporting fairly on that topic, was all.

Okay, well at least you admit to that being ridiculous, you said it not me.

1

Do you have a link to the real news, @SpikeTalon? This is nothing but Democrat propaganda.

No, because right-leaning sources wouldn't only go after Israel and have no condemnation for the Palestinians, so only the left-leaning sources would say such.

Sorry Fuzzy but Spike has that right.
Only the DemLeft would make out that the Israelis were the only bad guys in this “conflict”.
Interestingly, there’s actually never been a country named Palestine or, really, a people called Palestinians ... its like saying in the USA we have a group of people called the “Appalachians” who have supra-national “Rights” ...

@Bay0Wulf "...there’s actually never been a country named Palestine or, really, a people called Palestinians".
The Philistines, who the Hebrews were constantly at war with, were a people settled on the coast of Israel, but were likely wiped out by one of the conquering empires (Assyrian or Babylonian or Persian). The Greeks called that region Palestine for hundreds of years before the Romans took over and named it Palestine from 135-390AD.

@CelticRing
Yes, as I said, it was named as a “region” not a political entity.
Just like the Appalachian Mountain area is named “Appalachia” ... it too is not a political entity.

I find it interesting that you reword what I stated and then, as an argument, restate what I wrote ... almost exactly ... to refute what I wrote. So you say that what I wrote is incorrect by saying what I wrote is accurate ... (?)
Do you actually “win” many arguments like that?

@SpikeTalon Well thanks anyway. I've sort of learned to read between the lines of their spin anyway.

3

Your not alone Canada has liberals and the village idiot pm,

As in any country you can go to. This happens when idiocy is rewarded with tenure.

I don't believe that PM True-dummy is ever going to hold an office in Canada again.

@FuzzyMarineVet I hope so for Canada's sake.

3

"......, but Islam sure calls for the annihilation of "infidels"."
Talmudic Judaism instructs Jews to abrogate the Ten Commandments in dealing with any Gentiles. So I can hardly blame any religion, good or bad, for wishing to expel such a Cosa Nostra type cult from their surroundings. Nor can I blame Israel for their caution in dealing with any cult that follows a hateful Koran.

The traditional oral law which was later compiled into what is now the talmud is what Jesus was warning against as the "leaven" of the Pharisees.

@Genghis
Similarity, whether you accept it or not, Islam is a religion based on Love & Forgiveness, not hate, murder, & death.

It's the extremist elements of Christianity and Islam that give each their bad name, not their core tenets.

@Genghis
Errr ...?
Really?
Christianity may ... may ... have “matured” beyond their depredations but there was CENTURIES of the Inquisition and then there were Truly Horrific Wars of Faith (Christian Sect vs Christian Sect)

I would point out that many of Our Earliest Well Known Accounts of TOTAL Genocide are found in the Old Testament and feature Israelites (Jews) committing what we see today as atrocities ... “In the Name of God” ...

Just a simple for instance, read the account of Jericho.
In a time when a Large City State actually comprised the bulk of an Entire “People”, when they managed to reduce Jericho, by “the Command of God”, they slew EVERY Living Thing there.

Men, Women, Children, Cats, Dogs, Cattle, Fowl ... and DESTROYED or left to Waste Even ALL Goods (except for one guy who got caught taking something and they killed him)

Anyway ... that’s a famous Biblical Story and is still celebrated to some extent.

Even now ... even Christians ... sing about ... “When Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho”

It doesn’t necessarily make it Wrong or Right ... even then ... I simply find it humorous and puzzling for ANY Religion to lay claim to some Moral High Ground when it cones to atrocities.

@TheMiddleWay Nazi-ism is a movement based on Love & Forgiveness, not hate, murder, & death.
Does my saying that make it so? Or do we have to refer to the teachings of the philosophy in question (ie Mein Kampf and the Koran)?

@Genghis
Okay. Not my business to engage in damaging ... or debating ... a person’s faith.

@TheMiddleWay "It's the extremist elements of Christianity and Islam that give each their bad name, not their core tenets."
How could you be so backwards and upside-down?
It's the core tenets of Islam that give it a bad name. The later parts of the Koran over-ride any earlier parts (the peaceful part) of the Koran (by orders of Mohamed).
So if ever their is a conflict between forgiveness and vengeance, it is vengeance in the later part of the Koran that wins out in any theological court of Islam.
An extremist vegetarian will not even eat cheese or eggs. An extremist Buddhist will walk carefully in order to avoid stepping on ants. An extremist Christian will turn the other cheek too many times when attacked. An extremist Muslim will follow their Koranic teachings to the extreme and put on a suicide vest to kill infidels.

@TheMiddleWay "Islam is a religion based on Love & Forgiveness".
I seem to remember a passage from the Koran or one of Islam's other book where it says that in the end times all good Muslims must "Slay the Jews wherever you may find them." And that "All the rocks and trees will cry out 'Here is a Jew hiding behind me, Come and slay him'". "Except for one particular breed of tree that is the Tree of the Jews and will not reveal the Jew hiding behind it".
If you think that is love, then you are no better than Hitler.

@Genghis "....however, God's teachings does say and no where does it tell me to kill you if you don't agree with me".
Here are some Jewish Talmud quotes for you to ponder:
"Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night." -Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L
"IF a goy kills a goy or a Jew he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy he is NOT responsible." -Tosefta. 9boda Za,-a 8, 5
"Thou shalt not do injury to thy neighbor (Bible), but it is not said, 'Thou shalt not do injury to a Goy.' " -Mishna Sanhedryn 57
"All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general' " -Schalchan arach. Choszen Hasisxpat 348

@Bay0Wulf You are talking Apples versus Oranges when you speak of the teachings of a religion versus what those who claim adherence to the religions do in their lives.
Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden claim to be Catholic while they advocate for abortion. There are many "Muslims" who advocate for freedom of conscience. There are many "Talmud following Orthodox Jews" who claim to believe in equality of races.

@Bay0Wulf Oh NO, those Horrible Crusades! You seem to forget that Islam had just expanded by the sword from Arabia into Egypt and all the way up through Africa and into Spain, and up into Christian Turkey, ect.
Jesus said "Turn the other cheek". But He didn't say what to do after both cheeks had been slapped. You seem to think that Christianity should have just turned over the keys to all cities to the invading Mohammadins.

@Genghis A nation divided cannot stand, so I am fine with the Spanish Inquisition. Here are some of the Talmudic versus that those Jewish infiltrator Rabbis were teaching to their flock:
"It is forbidden to disclose the secrets of the law. He who would do it would be as guilty as though he destroyed the whole world." -Jektat Chadasz, 171, 3

"Every goy who studies the Talmud and every Jew who helps him in it, ought to die." -Sanhedryn, 59a, aboda Zora 8-6, Szagiga 13

"To communicate anything to a goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about them they would kill us openly." -Libbre David 37

"If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death." -Libbre David 37

"A Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim asks if our books contain anything against them." -Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Via 17

"The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts..." -Saba Mecia 114, 6

@Genghis Genghis, the quotes I provided are from the Jewish Talmud.
Here is some background on the Jewish Talmud:
Jesus denounced and reviled the Pharisees who believed in their self-serving Oral Laws that they made up in order to justify their Mafia lifestyle. (Pharisees were only one out of about twenty of the 30AD Jerusalem Jewish sects).
300 years AFTER Jesus, the Pharisee cult went on to write the evil Talmud, WHICH IS NOT THE TORAH. And these Pharisees also appropriated the title "Jewish" all for themselves. THE PHARISEES DO NOT ACTUALLY REPRESENT THE WHOLE OF THE 30AD-Jewish peoples.
Today's Orthodox and Hasidic Jews follow the racist, supremacist, evil Talmud, and they DO NOT really follow the Torah like the Christians do who follow the Bible.

@CelticRing
Hmmm ... I deliberately mentioned NOTHING in reference to the Crusades.
Further, I made NO Mention of Islam of which I am no fan.
Both of which I assure you I know more about than you do or likely will.

Are you capable of reading?
Don’t try putting words in my mouth.
I’ll happily bite your fingers off while questioning your lack of intelligence.

@Genghis Yes, and we shouldn't generalize ALL Jews when everyone is an individual. The Karaites and the Ethiopian-Jews only follow the Torah and not the later Talmud of the Pharisees. And the modern Reform-Jews also minimize the Talmud somewhat and highlight the Torah a little more.
But until the Jews and Israel honestly admit to the contents of their Talmud, I don't want to listen to Israel complain about Islam.

@Genghis

Anything done in the name of man is not of God's making,

For us agnostics and atheists, everything is done in the name of man and nothing is of god's making.
This is why allusions to "our" god or "mine" as any causal factor for the actions of man are, to us, a red herring.

As I see it, the core tenet of both religions is peaceful; it's the execution and interpretation of said tenets by man where it gets messy

@Genghis

but I don't agree that they are equally as bad or just as good as one another, in any respect.

This could be a result of your personal belief in Christianity biasing your assessment of another religion, don't you think?

@CelticRing

It's the core tenets of Islam that give it a bad name.

The five pillars of Islam are:
First pillar: Shahada (Profession of Faith)
Second Pillar: Salah (Prayer)
Third Pillar: Zakat (Almsgiving)
Fourth Pillar: Sawm (Fasting)
Fifth Pillar: Hajj (Pilgrimage)

None speak to violence.

I seem to remember a passage from the Koran or one of Islam's other book where it says that in the end times all good Muslims must "Slay the Jews wherever you may find them."

Not likely considering the Jesus, himself a Jew, is mentioned in the Q'uaran as coming in the end of days as a prophet for Allah. As well, many of the prominent jews mentioned in the Talmud and Bible as considered prophets of Allah in the Q'uaran. But I'd be curious if you can find where you came across such a concept...

@TheMiddleWay "Not likely,...... I'd be curious if you can find where you came across such a concept..."
The Hadiths are to Muslims kind of like the Talmud is to Talmudic Jews.
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews."

@Genghis

I never claimed to have any higher morality than you and I agree my personal religious views not just could but actually do bias my views of all religions.

As such, if f you don't think your personal religious beliefs also bias your views of other religions, then you are not being honest with yourself.

@Genghis

I don't think you would last 2 days with the likes of ISIS or boko haram.

You are right: Neither you nor I would last two days with any extremist group.
However, I have muslim friendships that have lasted a life time.
This is why I'm confident that it's not Islam that is the problem but a minority interpretation of it.

@TheMiddleWay "As I see it, the core tenet of both religions is peaceful..."
This belief of yours, that both Islam and Christianity are the same, is nothing but a FAITH based belief, not based on evidence. And therefore, this belief of yours is a religious belief like anyone's belief in God or Jesus. Only your belief is a fundamentalist and fanatical belief in your own infallibility, your own self as God.

@TheMiddleWay "I have muslim friendships that have lasted a life time.
This is why I'm confident that it's..."
Another proclamation based on the highest pinnacle of infallible authority, the end-all of Godly knowledge, ie on the notions of "TheMiddleWay". A testament to your Atheism and your Secular Humanism.
Instead of just reciting FAITH-based (FAITH in your own omniscience) proclamations on the topic, just study the Koran and the Hadiths.

@CelticRing
Interesting. Thanks for that; I only know the Q'uaran not any of the "ancillary" texts. Of course, this only applies if one wants to bring about the end of times... which I'm not sure is everyone.

@CelticRing

Another proclamation based on the highest pinnacle of infallible authority, the end-all of Godly knowledge, ie on the notions of "TheMiddleWay". A testament to your Atheism and your Secular Humanism.

No need to try and strawman me: I'm merely expressing my opinion and life experience, as we all are.

@CelticRing

This belief of yours, that both Islam and Christianity are the same, is nothing but a FAITH based belief, not based on evidence.

Never said Islam and Christianity are the same.
That is your strawman not my words.
What I do belief is that both have scripture which has been used to justify violence in the past and present. In that regard they are similar but I never have I said they are the same

4

It's not only the Democrats - There are plenty of traitors with the letter R in front of their names...we the people were sold out many years ago and thanks to the internet we are learning the depth of that reality.

I fully agree with you on that, which is why I don't associate with either major Party. My point was to show what lowlifes the progressives are by coming to the aid of a group of people that hate America and desire to kill anyone who doesn't accept Islam.

@SpikeTalon
What kind of people would we be, what message do we send, if we only help people that like us though?

@TheMiddleWay The question you should be asking is, what kind of a message do we send the rest of the world when we take sides with those who act violently on behalf of their religious beliefs? You don't see Jews blowing people up with explosives, and Jews certainly didn't carry out the acts of terror on 9/11. The Palestinians aren't innocent victims as some Democrat politicians think they are. Yes, there is enough blame to go around on that conflict, but one side is still far more violent than the other and one of them have been a longtime ally to the US. So what message do we send to longtime allies when we take sides with radicalized and violent factions?

@TheMiddleWay we won't be "a people" at all if we don't eradicate those who have vowed to destroy us and have acted out on that vow. When somebody says they intend to kill you you should take them seriously.

@SpikeTalon

You don't see Jews blowing people up with explosives

Baruch Goldstein

They do it significantly less... But they have done it.

@SpikeTalon

Jews certainly didn't carry out the acts of terror on 9/11.

Neither did Palestinians last I checked.

All I'm saying is Palestinians beef is with Israel, not USA. So there is no reason to not support them it's we want.

After all, just because we are allies to Israel doesn't mean we need support everything they do or think

@TheMiddleWay Some Palestinians are connected to terror cells though.

I question that, in the beginning they may have only had a problem with Israel, but that has changed. I can agree on the last part there, but think this time the US has good reason to back Israel given the circumstances.

@TheMiddleWay Yeah, far less, and what motivated Goldstein to do such? You guessed it, the current conflict in the middle east. Goldstein pursued a specific target as opposed to anyone and everyone who did not accept Judaism as the one true religion, big difference there. There are radical Jews who are guilty of extremism like Goldstein, but for the most part Jews aren't going off on murderous binges in the name of their religion like the adherants of Islam do, and again big difference there between the two.

@TheMiddleWay We have a formal alliance with Israel - this means that a militaristic or terroristic attack against Israel (US ally in the middle east) is tantamount to an attack against us. The USA. Besides there can be no denying the PLO is a criminal and terroristic organization dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel - their words - not mine.
You as a free and private individual can always choose sides. You can send money or other support to the PLO as you please. Better yet, you can go stand with them take up arms and help them launch rockets into Israel...so what's stopping you - since you feel all protective and defensive about PLO and you obviously hate Israel...didn't say you hated Jews...but that's almost the same thing.

@SpikeTalon

but for the most part Jews aren't going off on murderous binges in the name of their religion like the adherants of Islam do,

With Muslims comprising almost a quarter of the world population, for the most part neither are the adherents of Islam going off on murderous binges though...

I'm not saying they are equal, the same... but I am saying both religions are equivalent, similar, in that they both have blood on their hands and neither has the "moral" superiority when it comes to being peaceful.

@iThink

be no denying the PLO is a criminal and terroristic organization dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel

The PLO is recognized by Israel as representing the Palestinian people and since 1993 has recognized Israel's right to exist, i.e., it has not been dedicated to the destruction of Israel in close to 30 years.

@iThink

since you feel all protective and defensive about PLO and you obviously hate Israel

Whenever someone says "it's obvious", chances are it isn't. 😉

I do not hate Israel and my comments made no reference to the PLO, much less being protective of them.

Yes, it would be easier to attack my comments if I did hate Israel and if I was a die-hard PLO supporter... but I'm afraid that is a strawman of your own making.

@iThink

you obviously hate Israel...didn't say you hated Jews...but that's almost the same thing.

In your world, is anything negative about Israel automatically anti-Semitic?

In my world, one can speak negatively about the practices of Israel as a nation without it also speaking negatively about the people practicing Judaism as a religion

@TheMiddleWay you blame Israel for the hostilities being wreaked upon them by the entire Arabic culture. Talk about racial hatred and intolerance - there is no practical - no logical, no defensible explanation for the hatred of the State of Israel nor the Jews.

I don't live there and I am pretty sure you also don't live there. But I'm also pretty sure that if Israel had done anything at all (maybe farted in the wrong direction) to offend the Arabs in any way at all except for their existence as a sovereign nation we would know about it.

Show me something (with objective proof/evidence) that Israel as a nation State has done that warrants its destruction...just one thing. Anything at all. C'mon man...whatcha got.

If there is some unprovoked, indefensible act of that kind - from Israel against any of its enemies (which is literally every country in the world where Muslim culture is the dominant culture) or anyone else I will stand with you in condemning that act.

Criticize Israel all you like - but don't you think you ought to have some grounds for your criticisms...something more than your impulse to hate on them? Can you give us some coherent and logical argumentation on why you and others love to hate on Israel?

@TheMiddleWay Bloodletting in the name of Christianity (the crusades?) ended centuries ago - the occasional kook self professed "Christian cult or cult leader" being the exception.

Islam/Muslims on the other hand are a prescient threat to literally every non-muslim person, nation, culture here in the 21st century.

Seems almost every day we see people being hacked to death, bombs being set off, Christian churches being burned (do you really believe the burning of Notre Dame was an accident?), works of art, artists themselves, journalists and cartoonists and women who dare bare their faces in public raped, all in the name of Islamic jihad.
Funny - don't see that kind of behavior in the name of Christian teachings now do we.

So go on talking about "blood on the hands of Christian culture" - very weak argument IMO.

I'm pretty sure that some time back I encouraged you to take your family and move to the middle east. See how long before someone kills you, your wife, your children - all in the name of killing the infidel - Islamic Jihad.
Of course that admonition is rhetorical - we both know you would NEVER put yourself and your family in harms way in such a manner.

The point being that you know - KNOW - upper case KNOW that you can say and do anything you like - any blasphemous, vulgar, hateful thing you care to say about Christianity, Jesus, The Bible...anything you like and that there will be an extremely LOW probability that anyone would do you and your family any harm as a result.

Your "middleway" argumentation on the matter of worldly competing religious philosophies is a safe position to take. Hate on the one you know will not attack you for it and defend the one you fear...with good cause. You have nothing to fear as long as you maintain that tac.

@iThink

you blame Israel for the hostilities being wreaked upon them by the entire Arabic culture.

I've not said anything positive or negative about Israel, so I can't very much place any blame on them.

I think (as is too often the case in our conversations) that you are confusing me with the wrong person or simply have something you want to get off your chest about the Middle East and are using me as an excuse to do it.

Criticize Israel all you like - but don't you think you ought to have some grounds for your criticisms...something more than your impulse to hate on them? Can you give us some coherent and logical argumentation on why you and others love to hate on Israel?

I've not given a single critique of Israel nor have I expressed any love or hate for it.
You are, at this point, only talking to yourself...

5

"Progressives" are a misnomer. They really are repressive.

And aggressive...

@SpikeTalon hard to imagine a passive repressive.

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