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Materialist Determinism and Free Will

As many public thinkers including Sam Harris have expressed, it is hard to see how one has free choice given how many factours that are out of our control influence our actions. How can one reconcile this idea with the need for personal responsibility in the modern age?

cameron_maher 1 Oct 31
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My opinion is that one must develop the ability to increase their amount of will power. Free will is certainly, a romantic idea yet the notion that one cannot enact their will is in some sense fallacious. Here's another point. If one had omni will (god tier will power), would their will get in the way of their mental health? As in, would their will destroy relationships with friends, family and others with lesser wills. A fancy side note: If in fact there was a way to develop some form of virus to induce a state of free will, would it not be logically concise to say that the will to will was pre willed by an external source of coercion-- negating that it was in fact a willing rise to free will and insofar as this a paradox negating will power as a whole? Cool topic O.P.

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Although it may seem an unsophisticated or trite argument Dennett got this one right. Something does not need to be real in the sense that the physical sciences define real to be "real". Dennett uses money as an example. Money is an abstract concept and not real in the sense that physical sciences use when the term real is used. Like all abstractions money. like freewill, is a representation of and a tool to manipulate the representation of something that is connected to physical reality directly or indirectly.

Cultural abstractions have varying degrees of utility depending on how they are applied. Mathematics has broad utility and is a very sharp tool but it is still just an abstract thinking tool that is bit sharper but no less abstract than money. Freewill is at the very least a cultural abstraction with utility in social organization and just as real as money. If you want to see more of this argument I have discussed it in other posts and tied it to concepts such as wild justice.

It seems that even very intelligent people have trouble with a concept necessary to understand freewill. That is the idea of randomness. Like the concept zero randomness cannot be experienced. We are not blank slates and even if we were we do not exist outside of experience either as a result of internal or external stimulations. That which we cannot experience will always "feel" "unreal".

The debate goes on as to quantum physics demonstrating true randomness. In some sense random is as "unreal" as freewill. Yet most people accept that evolution is dependent on random mutations. You could argue that random is just a stand in for unknown causes but consider something even more obvious than evolution, Brownian Motion. Take a look at a standard definition of Brownian motion.

Particle diffusion (Brownian motion) occurs because particles suspended in a liquid or gas are bombarded by the molecules in these fluids causing the particles to move in a random fashion. ... Particles with a high diffusion coefficient have high mobility and mix rapidly in the fluid systems.

There is that pesky concept of randomness again something the strict determinists say is unreal. Yet most chemical processes are in some sense reliant on particle diffusion. For our purposes we can just accept that random is a useful concept and avoid all the intellectual traps that determinism implies.

Even if we assume, as Dennett seems to, that our brains are wet computers the value of "random" inputs to prevent looping is evident. The more complex the structure the more the need for random inputs. An ant for example has a relatively simply nervous system and the required randomness to prevent looping comes from the environment. For more complex nervous systems randomness may be part of the design or simply arise out of complexity. In either case it is essential for generating options. In this sense all freewill is would be behavioral options. That not all options are acted on is a result of what we call imagination. Keep in mind that the sophistication of organisms much less complex than humans are capable of "choosing" between options they have "Imagined".

Social animals must make very complex choices, that those choices may not rise to the level of freewill seems to draw too fine a point. What intellectuals such as Sam Harris are really saying is that the broad range of intelligence in humans means that some are better able to make the right choices than others. Some people will obviously have better imaginations than others. They can imagine more options and see consequences more clearly. This observation to me is as unsophisticated and trite as Dennetts take on freewill. Still it drives most of the intelligentsia towards a socialist orientation. To me E.O. Wilson's take is more sophisticated "Socialism: Good idea, wrong species". Complex organism are by evolutionary "design" "free" to make choices. As Peterson points out even Chimpanzee societies are more stable where the members choose to participate than under the direct control of even competent leadership.

Freewill is a natural and necessary abstract concept for the maintenance of social order. We are the cultural ape and should not underestimate the fragility or complexity of evolved culture.

That's quite a bit to think about.

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Can sentient conscious experience exist without free will? If so then it must be illusory. I think we cannot understand free will without fully understanding consciousness.

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I think we have a will. However, how free it is is debatable. None of us are sovereign.

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The way I see it you either have free will or you are a victim to fate itself. I choose the former.

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I'm pretty familiar with the science that the determinists are coming up with about brain development, chemical responses to environmental stimuli, how neurotransmitter production is turned on and then the chemicals caused to or prevented from being reuptaken(?), a lot of that stuff. They make a hell of a case that we're biological machines running environmentally induced programming routines. But, the question is a good one; how do we reconcile the science with free will and personal responsibility?

One thing we need to investigate further is "free won't." I've read articles that haven't really been so much falsified as dismissed, suggesting the decisions not to act on an impulse often are made with no measurable physiological precursor. The suggestion is that the impulse is determined, but that a "will" exists that can resist "temptation." I've read of--sorry, I don't have the words to avoid the base language--water-heads born with brain mass down in the 20-50% of normal range developing into almost indistinguishable from normal cognitive function.

Sometimes the literature carries anomalies that tend to be left little investigated because any validation would turn the main body of work on its head. Better to ignore, or flat ostracize, any reports that don't fit the knowledge base than to disrupt aspects that would force whole understandings to be reevaluated.

In the end, though, the fact is we experience the world through free will, and are held by society responsible, so we might as well work within that framework until it no longer best describes the reality in which we exist. We might very well be biological automatons but we still have a future to build. It won't be done just following our meat sacks around where ever their chemistries takes them.

I think the Greeks were onto something. We're animals, just like the rest of them, unless we practice being more. Skin suits or not, your tomorrow will certainly suck ass more than it needs to if you don't choose to work on it and yourself today. We all experience how much easier it is not to, and how much we regret when we fail to. Maybe that's chemistry, but that ain't the experience; the experience is miserable remorse. That's what it feels like to deny your will.

Scientists are determined to uphold determinism. Who can't blame them for wanting to maintain an orderly intellectual environment.

Claims of freewill are indeed extraordinary and require extraordinary evidence. I'm just not sure scientist are being responsible when they ignore the social implications of denying freewill. They seem perfectly willing in general to avoid other topics that could be socially disruptive such as race and gender but appear oblivious to how socially disruptive denying freewill is.

@wolfhnd I don't think it's nearly so much an unwillingness to consider the disruption that determinism might cause as it is that science has now actively joined the battle against anything even scented with traditionalism.

@govols

It's been 50 years since I was in college so my opinions are based on second hand information 🙂

You are right, at least as far as I can tell, that tradition is now somehow soiled in the minds of academics by association with religion and discrimination. My perspective is probably skewed by having had contact only with the scientific community sense I graduated. Within that limited community however determinism is very much the issue. It's a community that is not only hostile to religion but also philosophy. Not without reason I would add.

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