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What is your mental image when you hear the term "Transwoman"?

Transgenderism is a controversial topic both outside and inside the trans community. Within the community, there is a split between those who just want to be treated like "normal" women and those who are fine with the sexual/kink aspect... as the latter make the former appear more of a choice than an internal identity ("born that way" ). Many of the 99.5% of people who are not transgendered often have passionate views on how society should handle these people. As you may know, the supreme court recently issued workplace discrimination protection for transgendered Amercians.

Since this is our first question-of-the-day about transgenderism, instead of discussing policy, let's start with discussing what transgenderism, or more specifically, what the term "transwoman" means to you.

When I hear "transwoman", I think of:

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Transgenderism is another form of mental illness!!!!!
I know I will get slammed for that comment, but it is where I stand!!!!!!!!!!!

Serg97 Level 8 July 23, 2020
22

Ten years ago I was far FAR more supportive of all left-leaning causes. I believe all liberty should be given to people who experience sexual dysphoria. They ought to have every liberty and exercise the same bodily autonomy that I have. Why I cannot march with them anymore is purely strategic.

My current position is a defensive one. I believe that women are being attacked in the same format that leftists have used in the past to restructure society for the purpose of introducing Marxism. Real transgender/transsexual people are being used to further the agenda because it helps to deconstruct all traditional elements of "family" and society to build a new worker's society. What these useful idiiots always forget is that every single communist revolution resulted in the rich capitalists being replaced by bureaucrats who enjoy the same privilege and resources of their predecessors and workers still not having/owning shit.

I would love to be able to go back to where I was in 2010 when it comes to transgender people but now I feel as though I'm trapped in Helms Deep and have to fight for the survival of women if not humanity. Entryism, lies, deceit--that's what tthe left has practiced along with social shaming, shunning, and outright threats of violence.

I wish very much that I could still be that person who marched with transpeople. But TRAs have declared people like me "TERFs" and many of them have suggested that we all be raped, killed, or helped into suicide.

(as someone oft identified as a TRA I absolutely DO NOT want anything bad to happen to you or any other women. In fact I think that the turning of TERFs against trans people and trans people against TERFs is one of the most horrendous splits and wastes of time in the feminist movement in decades and only hurts BOTH of our abilities to effectively advocate for our rights.)

But I want to ask a question. Do you still conceptually stand with us? (Even if not so much anymore cause of other "defencive" elements of your anti-left politics).

I just want to say I'm a trans person (trans man) and I will stand and defend women's rights. I do not like where certain groups have taken the transgender argument. They DO NOT speak for me.

@Creamegg I support an individual's- individual- liberty. That is anyone. Everyone has a right to live without violence done to them and a right to do with their own body what they choose.

What I will not accept is anyone else believing that they have a right to tell me what to say, how to say, it how to think, or how I should refer to myself. I am not a cis woman. I am a woman. I am not a "menstruator". I am a woman. I am not a "uterus haver". I am a woman. I don't have a "front hole." I have a vagina. If you choose to refer to yourself as any of those things--go crazy. Just don't try to force or shame me into doing that to myself.

I wholly reject that biological women should be forced to accept biological men into sex segregated spaces. Will it hurt some people's feelings? Yes, but a lot fewer people will have hurt feelings than those people who will be embarrassed, ashamed, or fearful to be naked in a space they felt at one time was safe. I don't mean bathrooms, I mean changing areas, battered women shelters, and prisons.

I wholly reject the idea that JK Rowling is transphobic and any woman calling her that ought to be ashamed. It's like telling black people that they HAVE to accept white people into the NAACP or if not they hate white people. And more than just that I reject the death threats sent her way, the mass bullying to make her conform, and all of the violence being done to lesbians who don't want to have sex with a penis.

If all transpeople wanted was the right to be left alone, to choose their own destiny, and to be treated fairly in hiring then I would still be a vocal supporter. Unfortunately we are at a time when my interests and theirs are juxtaposed and I am forced to defend women's sex-based rights and liberties.

@RavenMStark I know. You are an honorable person. For you--I would go to the mattress (as they say in the Godfather).

I go to spaces that are safe for me. I am MtF post-op. Going into a male space (bathrooms, lockerrooms, changing areas, clubs) would be VERY unsafe for me. Standing naked in a room, no one would have any idea I am anything other than a woman.

THAT SAID, I agree that the transactivists are trying to force society to change when most transsexuals are quite happy for it remain it's binary self and allow us to adapt to that. Don't stand up for the community, stand up for those you know and care for. Know that we appreciate it.

@tracycoyle You and I have spoken privately and publicly. Somehow I missed this one. Anyway, I think we agree. The problem isn't women or transpersons...it's LEFTISTS. 😉

@ThomasinaPaine

Thank you for everything you have written in this entire thread. Your points are felt and valid.

Encountering people with gender dysphoria is nothing new, at least not to me as a woman. Every once in a while in a public woman’s restroom, I’d see a struggling male-to-woman trans. Most people wouldn’t recognize them, but women do. It’s hard to describe, but I knew the individual wasn’t there to do anything heinous but there to use the restroom as a woman. I didn’t really understand them, but it was never anything to go to battle over. We’d just wash our hands, smile politely to each other in the mirror, and then go our separate ways. I think this echoes a similar experience for many other women. It was a simple kindness (and assimilation?), no big issue, and no one had to “make” us do it.

This is where I draw a line: MAKING everyone do it.

What I cannot abide by, is what is happening in women’s sports! What someone looks like or says they are is not the same as what they are, biologically speaking. Ignoring the science in the fundamental structure of male and female bodies, forcing the rhetoric that we’re all the same, and then taking over the women’s sport (which forces them out or to quit) feels like a form of misogyny!

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When I hear transwoman, I think of someone being used as a pawn in the onward march of the leftist agenda. The activists on the left don’t care about the trans community any more than they care about the gay community, or the black community or the Latin community, or the indigenous community or any other potential political block for whom grievances can be manufactured.

The only group they really care about is the mainstream of the culture. The alleged exclusion of everyone else from said mainstream are the grievance levers with which the “rights” wars are initiated. But they aren’t fighting for anyone’s rights. They’re fighting to see the look on your face as one more abomination after the next is jammed down your throat, for no other reason than, “Because we can; and you can’t stop us.”

Maybe there are people who are deeply offended by the idea of a transwoman, but I’d guess not many. Not really. Ours is a culture that has thrived by staying out of other people’s business. There are digressions from the median throughout society. Perhaps no one is truly normal.

But when we are compelled through legislation to pretend, suddenly, that there are 32+ genders, and that each one is exactly the same as all the others, to the point of forcing women to compete in sports against biological men, the truth of the agenda becomes clear. It’s not about fairness, or equality. It’s about disrupting the status quo, collapsing the society and crushing those who inhabit it.

Edgework Level 8 June 17, 2020

I agree that the Left will always take an individual issue and try to use it to remake society in its belief in its ideological image - to the detriment of the individual and the group they belong to. And of course to the detriment of society as a whole.

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This is a pretty good example...

2peros Level 8 June 17, 2020

No, it is a meme, and a poor one, useless one, a purely political and personal hatred based one. Thanks for showing that even the Right can be politically motivated rather than personally human.

@tracycoyle this post is about gender, the rest is all you...

@2peros No, that was a way of being derogatory to Michelle Obama. Don't piss down people's backs and call it rain. I'm not a fan of her politics but I can't imagine having to shield your children from looking at all the countless memes that compare you to a man, a monkey, etc.

8

Whatever your opinion of switching genders, the idea is nothing new. Renee Richards did it way back in 1975.

What’s causing all the uproar today is that woke-progressives have appropriated the trans issue — like they’ve appropriated all social issues — and are using it to deconstruct the concept of male and female.

A surprising number of people are willing to live and let live on sex change; but people are outraged at the demand to eliminate the idea of males and females. And the woke mob loves to see the outrage.

GeeMac Level 8 June 17, 2020
7

Hollywood has been pushing deviance since it was in California. Men dressing as women has been depicted as comedy since the 1920's there. The more urban a culture gets the more deviance occurs. Notice how Hollywood always depicts rural America as "less" than the urban jungle. Urban Paris would be their idea of how culture should be organized, it always has been. This is where the saying comes from of "How ya gonna keep em down on the farm, once they have seen Parie'.
IT's not so much about how people "see", but how much they have been conditioned and groomed to accept the formally unacceptable. And Liberal media, music, entertainment today is a 24/7/365 brainwashing enterprise.

6

The American Psychiatric Association defines transgenderism as gender dysphoria. Therefore I think of someone who is mentally ill when I hear transgender. On a more political note, I think of a hypocrite, someone who tells me the “science” is settled on climate change, but denies their own biology. I think of someone who is pretending to be someone else, and who demands I pretend along with them. The simple answer to that demand is no. If you want to pretend that’s your business, don’t assume to force your dysphoria on me.

ZyThum Level 4 June 17, 2020

(this isn't an attack I promise). If a person with a huges ass beard and tatoos comes up to you and says "Hi, I'm Kevin" then whats his name and what is their biology?

@Creamegg If someone comes up to me or any other reasonable human and says "Hi I'm Kevin" then he's Kevin to me. If Kevin still has his vagina he probably doesn't want to change in an area with men who have a penis. Female to male transgenders typically do not ask for the same access to sex-segregated spaces.

It is more like people with beards saying "Hi my name is Tonya and I want you to wax my balls or I sue you" that people object to but the law protects them now over the person being forced to wax those balls. Women object to being naked around people who have a penis in a space set aside for women.

Many of us are victims of sexual assault by men and to be forced to change around a biological male is damaging. It's also damaging that young women are losing athletic scholarships that were created because they are not physically as strong as males.

You aren't trying to attack but you are presenting your argument in a way that isn't "like for like". The point isn't what you call someone--Buck Angel looks like a dude. People call him Buck.

The issue is medically Buck has had several health issues that only women have regardless of whether I consider Buck a man or not--and btw, I do. Buck is hella likable. The issue is also people like the Game Stop "Ma'am" and Jessica Yaniv abusing the law to make women afraid and uncomfortable.

It's not about bathrooms anymore. Bathrooms give you closed doors. It's about battered women's shelters, locker rooms, etc.

Disorders are not always an illness. Consider someone born without a hand - they are handicapped, but not ill. It was a defect. The transsexual has such a defect (in our opinion until they have medical proof) that can not be seen, only 'felt' internally. One of the characteristics, in part proven by the real life test that is required by the medical community prior to surgery, is the ability to have a stable life: financially, socially, emotionally. Once we get on hormones, start living in a way consistent with our internal view, and are perceived publicly, most of us become quite happy people that function well in society - wellness in psychiatric terms.

@ThomasinaPaine at least in my experience, if we were in a lockerroom or changing room, you would not be able to SEE anything about me that would be emotionally harmful - I present, appear, to be fully a woman.

Trying to use a 'male space' would be EXTREMELY dangerous to me!

@ThomasinaPaine ooooookay so the problem I have with that is that you immediately jump to the nth degree. Jessica Yanniv is a horrible person and a creepy pedophile. Everyone agrees on that.

I honestly think the salon who didn't want to serve Yanniv is in the right. It makes sense to do sex segregation when talking about a sexed bodily organ like the genitalia. I wouldn't want (say) a gynocologist to have to work with male genitalia cause obviously fucking not. However that being said once someone is post op then the discussion becomes more detailed at that point it isn't a penis thats being dealt with. However the point is Yanniv is in the wrong especailly because those saloniers didn't have training to work with male genitalia and therefore it would have been innappropriate for them to do so.

Likewise the gamestop Ma'am person was cringy but to my observation thats just a US thing. You all are fucking crazy with how willing you are to abuse staff over percieved offences. I mean don't get me wrong I understand her frustration but... they are doing a job serving the public. At least try control yourself.

SO with that out of the way literally everything else you said is... odd. Cause most rational """TRAs""" and trans people, even us farleft nutjobs are not really in disagreement. But we just want to be fucking safe. Most trans people fucking hate their bodies anyway and aren't likely to put it on show in a changing rooms, like tracycole. Likewise most trans people don't just start using the bathrooms of their transition to gender immediately out of the gate, many waiting until they are at a point of medical transition before doing so even if they are the most wokelib shit.

Also I'm not sure where you're getting the transman thing from... of the public ones I've heard speak and the few I know opinion seems to differ on this but they end up being alienated from women's spaces by being OBVIOUSLY MEN (and therefore as men in women's bathrooms they get funny looks, abuse or odd comments) while also (especially early into transition) being affraid to use men's bathrooms for exactly the reason you describe.

Funnily enough I'm kinda in this position myself but more cause I'm generally gnc and while I use my assigned gender at birth services I get questioned on a regular basis.

The oddest thing is that this is the weirdest misdirect in history. Women aren't in danger in public. The VAST majority of sexual and bodily voilence comes from home environments through men that people know in their life.

@tracycoyle

It seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that there are four kinds of trans people, three of whom are related. "Transsexuals" would be those who transition to the opposite sex -- and of these, there are those who are visibly incongruous, those who "pass" but who are known to be trans, and lastly those who are in congruence and who have maintained something like "narrative privacy" -- who aren't known anymore to have transitioned.

And then there are those who aren't aiming for the opposite sex, but for the liminal in-between place occupied by those who are (temporarily or permanently) visibly incongruous. These are the activists that are causing all the problems, yes?

Finally, another question: What is the difference, from your personal experience, between how you are gendered by people who don't know your history of transition and those who do know?

@SophiaPistis I would say there are the variations on transsexuals that you state, while I personally don't identify as transgendered, many TS do.

So, yes, there are transsexuals and 'others' that inhabit, by choice, a place between the traditional binary man/woman. And yes, this in-between space is where the activists reside and agitate from.

Those that know my past: family and extended family treat me no differently than they do any other woman.

I get misgendered on occasion. I don't freak out over it. It is usually my voice that causes the issue when people can't see me (phone, drive-thrus). My daughter split a gut once when at a drive-thru the voice said thank you sir and I responded to the very male voice you're welcome ma'am. I truly don't let it bother me and 100% of the time when I'm misgendered by voice and then meet in person, there is an immediate apology. I've been asked if I was transsexual or a lesbian by one woman...

I am treated respectfully everywhere I go, and I travel a lot. Even in 'safe spaces'. I treat people respectfully. I would also say that things have gotten better over the last 20 years (the 80's and 90's were dangerous).

BTW, EVERY single person I considered a 'friend' that I told about my past, left. No exceptions they bailed out. So, the 'fear' of exposure, the consequences of disclosure are real. I've regretted it every time..

@tracycoyle It is unfortunate that anyone has to feel afraid. BUT there are times when we decided in favor of what protects the most people. Girls are assaulted, injured, sexually battered and abducted in far greater numbers than their male counterparts. My choice is in favor of protecting girls from female genital mutilation, from being child brides, and from being placed in a vulnerable sexual position at any time.

The solution is to just create a separate space for transgender persons to utilize but for some reason that's never the demand of transactivism. I believe that creating alternative locker rooms tis a better solution than forcing women, 1 in 6 of us having been sexually assaulted by men, that we must accept that we have to be naked around biological men in a locker room.

I do understand your position--you're telling me that I should just live with being afraid and uncomfortable so that you don't have to be uncomfortable. I'm telling you that I I don't want to be uncomfortable or afraid, either and will do what I feel is necessary to protect myself and my daughters.

Lastly, this idea that I should feel guilty for wanting a safe space for me is as absurd and manipulative as me saying that to you. You are allowed to want what you want without being shamed into wanting something different.

Our causes are at odds and sometimes that is just how it is.

@ThomasinaPaine No, not at all. I want you to feel safe. And with regard to pre-ops, or when I was pre-op, I avoided 'women only spaces'. I generally avoided bathrooms too unless it was...urgent and then I tried to keep to single occupant restrooms. You would need a medical exam and a genetic test to tell I was 'biologically male'. So, if we knew each other, knowing your concerns, I'd avoid 'women only spaces' when you were around. Otherwise, I would think the fear was unwarranted.

Given your namesake, individual liberty is bounded by the rights of others. Sometimes those boundaries are 'fuzzy', ragged, nebulous. I lived respectful of women's spaces pre-op. I have the same concerns as you do post-op.

And yes, I've been mugged, assaulted and raped by men. My genes didn't help me stop any of it.

@Creamegg Why is it when we want to discuss bad cops we can use examples but when we want to discuss the MANY times that self-identified trans women have raped, harmed, threatened, or harassed women then it's dismissed as cherry picking? Nevermind, I know the answer. Hypocrisy is as old as time.

Anyway, I'll do as you ask and forget about It's Ma'am because its in the US...we're all Karens, amirite?

So let's talk about you guys in the UK. Why is it that after YEARS of support for LGBTQ+ JK Rowling is cancelled and threatened because she said --Goddess Forbid--that Ms Forstater oughtn't to have lost her job over an opinion? Why is she called "hateful" for defending the definition of a woman? Why in the UK did no-one give a literal shit when those older lesbians were beaten by ANTIFA for holding a sign that said "Adult Human Female"? Why is it that people are allowed to post on social media that Magdalen Berns deserved to die of brain cancer because--"one less TERF"?

Flip it around and Laverne Cox dies of cancer--do you think Facebook would allow posts about "one less trans"? Fuck to the no.

Transactivism did not used to be at odds with feminism but now, sadly, it is. Girl athletes have to accept the back seat and limited scholarships because--hey--a trans persons feelings are far more important than theirs. Girls have to accept getting naked around people with penises because their feelings aren't as important as the trans child's. Gotta cancel Vagina Monlogues because NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS! Labia cakes on International Woman's day is insensitive because NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS.

Not to mention the fact that now reproductive health materials have had to be changed because it hurts some trans women's feelings that they don't have a vagina. HRC, PPA, and others now use "front hole" to describe my vagina--something that if a man said to me would be considered vulgar.

To you these seem inconsequential. To me it is like dealing with the Religious Right of the 90s. Obfuscate sex education to the point where young women don't even know how to protect themselves from pregnancy or disease so that some people aren't distressed about it. Stop saying vagina or vulva because it bothers some people. You can't date whomever you want but if you don't date who we want you're a bigot. In my state if you misgender a customer they can sue you even on accident.

It did not have to be this way but it is this way NOW.

And, btw, I'm not stupid. I knew you were concern trolling but I took the bait because why not? I can waste 10 minutes here and there to say what Magdalen Berns can no longer say.

@tracycoyle There will always be people bigger than us in life. I actually believe if there were fewer LAWS about this stuff then we can discuss every situation individually and create individual solutions.

Where I get feisty is watching leftists try to force things on me, especially language.

If you and I were stuck in a sex-segregated space I guarantee as individuals we could work it out but leftist activists are not content with us working it out as two humans. They want to tell us HOW we have to work it out and pick a winner. They also want to tell the non-winner that somehow I am more "privileged" as a woman.

As a feminist you an imagine where this fries my ass. Women do not have privilege. We can bear the child of rape. We can be told in some countries how we practice family planning. We are forcibly sterilized in some countries, married off as children, burnt to death for dowries, beaten for being raped, et al.

I don't see libertarians trying to cause a war between biological women and transwomen because they treat people as individuals not a member of a group.

BTW, much respect to you for putting up with me. 😉

@ThomasinaPaine I didn't use any examples, so I assume that was for @creamegg. I am not concern trolling, so I hope an apology if it seemed so is appropriate .

Given my classical liberalism, I support Rowling's POV and agree with her. I oppose the term TERF, though I am not accepted by some women as a woman - and my partner was ostracized because of our relationship from some of her lesbian friendships.

I am not a support of transactivism. I oppose transwomen in sports, pre or post-op. I refused to compete in my sport once I started transition. Frankly, all women have vaginas. Most transsexuals MtF do too. I would, do, oppose pre-op transwomen in women only spaces. It is a matter of respect, and for many women, safety.

I oppose virtually ALL of the irrational nonsense that transactivists are peddling with regard to 'pre-ops' being treated as 'full biological women'.

All of this is a difference between a 'progressive woke leftist activist' POV and a classical liberal POV.

I am not of the Left, in any shape or form and think transactivists are doing significant damage to the TG community.

You are right, feminists, lesbians and transwomen shared lots of common ground - that has been torn up by transactivists. I am not one. I don't consider myself trans, transgendered, or a transwoman. The activists certainly don't speak for me.

Transactivist allies amongst cis-women are the blind leading the deaf. I've no use for them.

@tracycoyle Yes, that was for Creamegg. I understand you are trying to make me understand who you are and your position in an authentic and upfront way. I always ALWAYS appreciate that.

@ThomasinaPaine The saddest thing about your tyrades against me is that we are both feminists first and foremost and we are on the same side.

I DO NOT THINK ITS INSENSITIVE TO HAVE LABIA CAKES.
I disagree with JK and think critisism of her is justified (cause she is wrong) BUT DEATH THREATS ARE TOO FAR.
I think that predators deserve whats fucking coming to them but I also know that they are the vast minority of trans people whereas 85% OF COPS IN AMERICA HAVE SEEN ANOTHER COP USE EXCESSIVE FORCE AND 65% SAID THEY WOULDN'T REPORT IT.

Likewise 1% of calles end up in force being used which means if thats even across every police force and each police officier handles 1 call a day 3 calls a year end up with the potential for excessive use of force. Likewise your police are TRAINED TO FUCKING KILL PEOPLE. This is a critique of injustice. Trans predators are a moral panick over a small handful of predators, of which you seem to be willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

...

I'm sorry if I seem like I'm coming over as angry but the point is you don't even seem to be trying to listen to the majority of trans people and seem to be willing to throw their rights away because of some nutjobs who aren't even piloting the fucking plane.

I agree fronthole is vulgar and vagina is a perfectly fine term. I agree that menstruator sounds weird.
We agree on a lot of things and every single interaction with an actual trans person both in real life or on the internet when I have had the time to talk to them for an extended period, in the most FAR left of spaces, AGREES WITH THE LIKES OF YOU AND ME.

...

I don't want feminism to fall apart.

@Creamegg I think the saddest thing to me is that you think I am raining a tirade down upon you. I didn't start with the" Oooookay" snark or the sideswipe about Americans but I'm not going to shrivel when someone attempts to shame or silence me. I'm also able to bring clarity to my feelings when asked so it's unnecessary to develop a straw man with which to have a discussion. I am perfectly capable of engaging with you as an adult without crawling off to a safe space.

I don't disagree with JK Rowling and from the actual transpeople commenting most of them don't either. It's the virtue signaling handmaidens that think they need to cape for them. Since you do, however, tell me specifically what she said that was untrue.

Can you? What did she say that was untrue?

I've watched at least 4 different videos from transpeople who said that 1) she was correct and 2) that they wish that non-trans people would shut up about it. But since you know best why she's wrong with what she said please tell me.

The issue of police is another topic and related to the monopoly on force as much as racism. Cop Watch has a database of police violence that they have shared with the ACLU and the problem is far more sinister than simply "systemic racism". If you want to discuss that --and I mean discuss that not ALL CAP me, we can discuss it. My feelings on police brutality are summed by Ice Cube so you don't need to preach to my choir. I've been a victim of it.

Lastly, you act as if I do not listen to transpeople. I listen to them all the time. I've subscribed to many on YouTube and I speak to them whenever possible. There are times when our positions juxtapose and times when we are congruent. Just like other issues there will be times when what 2 groups or 2 individuals want are in direct odds with one another and there is no space for compromise. One will have to cede. Women have historically been the ones who cede to others. I'm just not going to anymore because too much is at stake.

Now, you can ALL CAP me and you can also misrepresent my views and continue to judge me and I'm not going to get angry or lose my temper. I'm an adult human female and that means having the brass tits to stand my ground without falling prey to the trope of the hysterical female.

I'm GNC. I'm a libertarian. I'm not a leftist or a conservative. I believe in INDIVIDUAL freedom and autonomy to choose what we do with our lives, our families, and how we use language. I don't believe people who say they are "feminists" and then do everything they can to throw women to the back of the bus.

Rosa Parks didn't like it back there and neither do I.

Professor Crenshaw's thesis on intersectional feminism wasn't this watered down "everyone but white males" bullshit the Every Day Feminists like to make it seem. It was simply where sex/race/economics collide those women who are a minority race in their country or poorer will have greater challenges than women who are not.

Telling women that "intersectional feminism" means we try to life up everyone BUT WHITE MALES has resulted in women doing all the heavy lifting and then to add indignity to it must not complain when things happen as they did in Cologne because---hey their struggles are more important than yours.

I am pro trans people having every single LIBERTY that I have and I intend to give them every single respect I would like for myself--their pronouns, their name, etc is whatever they tell me it is.

However, I am not, will not, never will concede the definition of female, vagina, labia nor will I use language like cis to refer to myself. I will NEVER shut up about women's sports and I will never concede that my daughter should have to change around someone who has a penis against her will. I'm not going to feel guilty about it, I won't be shamed. You can think what you want about me.

I am an actual feminist.

@ThomasinaPaine I would like to apologise for my conduct in this conversation. My wish is not to beat you down or any other feminist seeing as I am a feminist to and like I keep on saying I our similarities outweigh our differences. All of my snark and all capsing is just because I deal with lots of people on the internet (including literal Nazis) and Im sorry if because of that I have unneccissarily attacked or misrepresented you.

I'd like to change the tone and tell you directly what I understand from what you're saying. To me it sounds like you're saying that you'll stand with trans people in every way bar the phsycial, but won't put out to actually ensure their safety or actually accept them in more than a passing manner. To me this is dangerous.

@Creamegg First, I am doubting that you speak to actual Nazis if you can so misconstrue what I've said. I'm starting to believe you misconstrued them, as well. But...we'll go with it.

Second, you didn't change the tone. This "tone" is why I have next to no respect anymore for people who claim to be for social justice. Dr King wrote amazing thesis on the subject and what we have today...well, that aint it. Here's a little truth bomb--no one, NO ONE likes to be talked to the way you talked to me just now. Most people will just write you off, some will rebel on that tone alone, and others will just hide how they really feel.

Third, that's not what I said at all. I would prevent any violence being done to a transperson. I have been in physical altercations in defense of someone before so those aren't just words to me. I've worked outside the US to establish cooperatives for women in developing nations. I am very proactive in my beliefs.

I will repeat what I said: there are times when two groups face opposing wants and needs. In most cases trans women and women have needs that do not conflict and converge. When they don't I'm going to promote the safety of biological girls. I made a choice. Girl children are the most subjugated and oppressed classification of human across the globe. They are sexual abused, ritually abused, degraded, and have fewer rights than men.

I'll do to you what you just did to me: You will stand with little girls in every way but the physical, but won't put out to actually ensure their safety or actually accept their rights in more than a passing manner. To me this is dangerous.

Oddly, after writing that I realized that it is more true of you than when you wrote that to me.

You also never answered why JK Rowling was so transphobic. Another debate tactic that I cannot stand with SJWs is that they love to ask you questions, rewrite what you have to say so that you can be placed in the right box, but they never want to answer with any detail when they are asked a question.

I don't see the world like you. It's not filled with Nazis, evil people, racists, sexists, etc. I see a bunch of good people being manipulated by politicians who have an agenda, people who don't understand how much money goes into the propaganda that has them thinking everyone's a demon but the Almighty Government.

Individual people can work out solutions to all of the issues we have now. Individual situations call for individual solutions. If there were no law at work and a trans woman without bottom surgery went to my gym I would work something out with her individually so she feels safe and I feel safe. If I were a bikini waxer and Jessica Yaniv came in I would just say "no".

It's the laws, these one-size-fits all solutions that create division because they do not allow for humans to work things out on their own. In fact, they create hard fast lines that make people act like the worst version of themselves out of self-protection.

Now, if you want to continue to engage with me I am going to demand that you treat me respectfully or I won't bother to reply. You've proven to be a caricature of an SJW already with the snark (which is no longer funny now that everyone does it), with the putting words in my mouth, with the labeling of me, and you own lack of detail to why you think something. You still haven't explained what JK Rowling said was wrong and why.

So for now I'm out until you want to reciprocate when it comes to question and answer time. Have a nice one.

@ThomasinaPaine Okay again I'd like to apologise and I'd like to say I'm quite young and still learning how to conduct myself. I know its naive to believe everything you read on the internet but believing you on all of that you are basically an idol of the type of work I want to do. Maybe not exactly but I'd like to get involved in helping women, deaf people and gnc/lgbtq folk in material ways in the future, right now I'm still learning.

To me Rowling is wrong in a few different ways. I don't think I alone am competant enough to critique all of it comprehensively but my comment was that critique of her is justified but the threats she gets are too far. If you gave me some time I might be able to look stuff up and get back to you on that.

I'm sorry I disrespected you and now you explained it to me I get your point more and you'll maybe be surprised at this; I agree. (as much as any two people can, cause everyone has opinions). Its a shame that the interests of trans women and cis women clash and to me thats a bit of a deadlock because I care about both. I do not have a good solution to it.

I'm genuinely sorry that my view of what you were arguing for being so harmful but evidently the nuance of it slipped me by a little and that was what I ended up with.

I will try and take this on board as a learning experience and not be the characature as a preachy SJW, because I do not want to be that and I'm sorry if I made your day worse.

@ThomasinaPaine Also I'd like to explain the Nazis I've come into contact with.

One attempted to convince me that homosexuality and pedophilia were inextricably linked and teaching children that gay people exist was dangerous because of this.
Another was like obsessed with the twelve tribes of isreal and thought that human races literally had different points of origin, didn't believe in evolution. Thought that black people couldn't even comprehend how to use English because of skullshape of something.
Another again literally thought a nearby jewish neibour was a freemason and considered shooting them up. Pretty non jokingly.

One of these three was in this community.

@Creamegg JK Rowling said 1) that everyone should be allowed to live as they choose and 2) that no one should be fired for an opinion and 3) Sex has a lived reality and is how women are subjugated all over the world.

What of those 3 things do you disagree with and why? I can simplify it by asking it this way:

  1. Do you believe women are NOT discriminated against legally because of their sex in Afghanistan? Egypt? KSA, Sudan, et al?

OR

  1. Do you believe women are discriminated against in those countries?

2a) If you do agree that they are do you think that oppression is tied to a gender performance and/or lived experience?

OR

2b) Do you acknowledge that their oppression begins at birth because of their genitals?

IF you are honest enough to admit that in 90% of the world's population women are legally discriminated against because of their sex organs than you have to admit she's partially correct.

JK Rowling further explained that women and transwomen share many, many commonalities and for this reason ought to fight for each other's rights. I also agree with this.

Where I disagree is when I have to make my daughter less safe to make someone else feel safe, ie we are asking young girls to once again sacrifice for a greater good that is rapidly showing them that they don't matter at all.

Women are canceling JK Rowling left and right despite all of her charitable donations, her advocacy, but because she said ONE thing that they don't like. I don't consider women who sell out other women to be someone I trust to work with --I don't trust anyone that demand I agree with them 100% or else I'm shunned. Even if they didn't threaten her with violence-which they are, they're still shunning another woman for having an opinion.

I understand now why many blacks dislike "Uncle Toms".

@Creamegg Go to Chapo Trap House sometime. They literally plan going onto forums like this and pretending to be Nazis. Maybe it's an actual Nazi or maybe it's someone ticking off every single check box.
Either way I've never met a real one and I'm ethnically Jewish. The only people who have insulted me for my heritage to my face weren't white or conservatives but that may be a cultural thing. I've noticed a lot of white Americans don't speak up so they might be calling me that Kike-y dyke behind my back. I've been called a "Snow N-word" too and sadly by someone of color. shrugs

To me, it wasn't such a big deal. I don't judge people by qualities that they cannot help or being associated with people having those same qualities who are assholes. I take everyone as an individual until I am in a country where I have no legal protections as a woman and then I pretty much fear the ones that have penises.

I know that I'm not much fun, to you. I'm ruining the KILL ALL TERFs party but I've lived a little and experienced the world outside of The West. I was chased and had things thrown at me for not covering my head in some of the countries that I worked in (yes, more than once).I was spit on. I've been sexually assaulted. What I learned is that I don't care if you call me a bitch. That's your opinion of me and only mine matters. Think whatever you fucking want. I only care when you strike me, harm me, or threaten me with violence.

Right now, the ONLY people who have threatened me with violence in the last six years are all transactivists--most of them people like you. Allies. Not actual transpeople. Sure one or two transpersons said "rape the TERF" but its mostly allies. I get along with trans people in general.

I think more dangerous than "Nazis" are the ANTIFA kids because they actually get away with beating up old lesbians for wrong think. They get away with raping women during Occupy. They get away with having guns. Let the Nazis hate me for being a Jew that sometimes dates women. They aren't the ones in control of social media or district attorney's offices. They are pariahs in their own community for looking like dips hits. Whereas the young leftists are being applauded for being horrible violent humans.

I hope I haven't been too stern. I appreciate the attempt at an apology. I'm just too old for this shit.

6

Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. All other invented genders are from Uranus.

5

I think they have a mental disorder BUT I have sympathy for them. I have a mental disorder — I have severe DEPRESSION/Anxiety!

5

I'm torn here. We used to view this as a mental issue. With no research we deemed it a social acceptance issue. We have a 48% suicide rate both before and after transformative surgeries. This strongly implies that something else is going on here. It's a not a politically convenient statement but I strongly believe severe gender dysphoria should garner further research and study.

Folix Level 3 June 18, 2020

I agree with the need for more study. Two issues/problems: I have participated in medical studies as a transsexual to help the medical community learn more (two drs and a nurse have said their professional careers were changed because of meeting me towards working with the community), but I prefer to 'blend back into society'. Most of us just want normal lives. Second, there are damn few of us, statistically. And as the issue is probably in the brain, short of post-death structural observation, it is difficult to 'test a hypothesis'. Unethical for the medical community and detrimental to the patient.

It is a disorder, I think most transsexuals will readily agree. The solution or treatment is what is arguable the societal issue. I prefer to work towards congruency - but that is an individual process.

4

I was born a male, and I will die a male - until they have a way to change my genetic structure.

I have lived as a woman for more than 32 years. I have been 'congruent' for 27 of them. In other words, I started my transition at 29, had SRS/GRS at 34 and been comfortable in my own skin for that long. I never considered suicide, before or after. I had no homosexual interactions prior to surgery - BTW, those two things were considered DISQUALIFICATIONS for surgery back in the 80s. I have many sexual interactions with men and women AFTER GRS, happily and without hysterics. How I have been perceived, both in the mirror and in public is part of that congruency.

FOR THE MOMENT, it is considered a mental disorder - the medical community assumption that something went wrong in the brain is probably correct. As we can not 'fix' the error in the brain (hormonal conditioning), we allow those that have clearly defined gender identity disorder to 'fix' the error by changing the body. Also, those hormones affect our brain chemistry in what for most people is a REALLY good way, we start to feel normal - as we understand it.

I doubt ANYONE without GID understands the issue. And saying 'a woman/man trapped in a man's/woman's body' is so far from the reality yet maybe the only useful way to explain it. We are not trying to change reality, we are trying, desperately, to adapt to it. We were born with a defect. You can't see it, but we can see and feel it every day of our lives.

Transgender encompasses a broad range of conditions/issues. MANY have little to do with GID. It is a reason I consider myself transsexual, not transgender. For most transsexuals (MTF, FTM), we just want to be 'normal' for the normal definitions of woman and man. For many transgenders, that binary choice/behavior is NOT what they want/desire/need. That distinguishes them from 'us'.

Trans-activists are doing, have done, significant damage to the transsexual community - we were slowly gaining acceptance, much of that has been destroyed because of some desire to change society to conform to a fraction of it - this is a typical Leftist type approach to political change and it uses and abuses those it purports to be helping. I reject their "help".

My brain format and my body were not congruent. After years of work and effort and medical support, I gained that congruency that 99% of the population not only takes for granted, but is unaware any such issue is possible.

Thanks for your perspective.

Eloquently stated! I am very happy that you have been able to obtain a better alignment of body and mind. ❤️. If people would stop the radical push to force others to align themselves with other people's identities, and instead seek an understanding of the complexity of body and mind, it would be a better world. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Christians, men, women, atheist, black's, whites, Hispanics, etc ad nauseum.

Well said! Thank you very much for putting this into words.

By your differentiation, I'd be a transsexual. I refer to myself as "trans," "trans masculine," or "transgender," but I would also accept the term "transsexual."

Your perspective as someone who has been congruent (excellent word, I will be using it in the future) as long as I've been alive is invaluable!

@tracycoyle Yep, there’s a lot about this issue I don't understand, but I do admire the courage and willingness to share your personal story. Thanks!

4

I'm a trans man (i.e. female to male). I voted for "A Born Male Who Always Felt Like A Woman Trapped In A Male Body." This one stood out to me the most, based on my own experiences as a transgender person.

As far back as I can remember, I knew I was a boy. I thought I could grow up into a boy or that God could "fix it" or that Santa Claus would somehow bring me the solution. Obviously, when I got older, I found out those things were not going to happen. I tried very hard to be a girl. I really did. I'm 34. I didn't know what trans WAS until I got to college. And even then, there wasn't a ton of info for me.

I made a "social transition" at that time (no hormones/surgeries - clothes, haircut, and name change, basically) and continued on for 10 more years. About 2 years ago, I started taking testosterone (after talking with my doctors and therapists) and it changed my life! The serious depression and anxiety I had been suffering all my life has vanished - and I had not even attributed the depression/anxiety to my gender before then. It did not seem related at the time and I assumed I would still be depressed and anxious.

I had additionally been diagnosed with generalized panic disorder. I was having a panic attack at LEAST once a month and I was on medication for this. I stopped having panic attacks. My doctor has allowed me to go off my anxiety/panic medications. I am taking no medication other than testosterone now and I have not had a panic attack in 2 years. I have not missed work. I have not had suicidal ideations. My work performance and home life are both vastly improved.

In short, the medical transition (HRT - hormone replacement therapy) seems to have cured my mental turmoil. Does that mean I have a mental illness and the appropriate treatment was HRT? Maybe. Does that mean I have a medical condition that was causing me mental distress until it was taken care of? Maybe. I honestly can't tell you.

To what extent has testosterone influenced your body such that people who don't know your narrative will assume automatically you're a man? And to what extent do such experiences alleviate your dysphoria?

@dd54 Exactly, my friend. Thank you for your comment. I see things the same way.

@SophiaPistis Regarding my body: I am assumed to be male 100% of the time by strangers.
I do have some "tells" that could make me potentially clockable by someone who was really scrutinizing and knew what to look for. But I assume most humans will not be scrutinizing.

Regarding my dysphoria: It's gone. I do intend to get top surgery (chest reconstruction), but if that was somehow not available to me, I think I'd still be content.

@dd54 Thank you. It doesn't offend me when you say that. You have a good heart. I agree with the sentiment and would give the same advice to another trans person.

I lived a "social transition" life for years before finally deciding on HRT (hormone replacement therapy). I wanted to be absolutely SURE before I took hormones. Testosterone does have a very drastic effect on the body. I don't intend to rush into any next steps. This is the only body I will get, after all!

I wish that more young AFAB (assigned female at birth) trans people today would consider a long-term social transition before taking testosterone. I worry about the rate of FtM (female to male) transgender people who may later regret and detransition. This viewpoint of mine also relies on a broader social acceptance of trans people who do not "pass" and are not taking hormones. I know I am digressing from the point of the conversation a bit, but I just wanted to put that opinion out there.

Thank you for your very kind and respectful conversation!

Good for you. I don't care if a person is LGBTQIA. They are a person. It sounds as if you have found your place and I am happy for you.

@Pand0ro Thank you! I appreciate it -- and I agree with that sentiment. People are just people.

4

Transgender, gay, lesbian it's all the same thought process with this movement. They don't want the same rights as everyone else they want to be up in every ones face cramming their freakishness down everyone's throats. There have been gays and lesbians for decades the difference is all they wanted was to be with the one they loved and left alone. Now you have the Pride Parade and Transgenders at the library reading to young children. And they have done nothing but to create more hate and anger.

Dmwils Level 7 June 17, 2020

I certainly would not lump DragQueens in with transsexuals - which is the problem with "transgender". It brings together individuals with VERY different issues and world views. And the activists that promote that 'lumping together' to get a larger perceived community (bludgeon) for political power is disgusting to many. Both in and outside of the community.

4

Terrible clothes, 5o'clock shadow, over made up with a jaw that gives it right away from 100 yard's! All wrapped up in a very insecure attention seeking mess

You have probably (most people in urban areas have) meet a post-op transsexual and didn't know it. Most of us pass quite well, even naked. And for most, 'attention seeking' is the absolute LAST THING we are.

n old friend of mine went for it about ten years ago completely blew us away, @tracycoyle from Russ aka the right dishonhorable Sakamoto Motorhead, who fucked woodies bird in the big cupboard in the living room whilst woodie was eating his tea eandcwatching telly obliviously! ... Then 5 years later bumped into him wearing leggings and awful old woman's blouse from charity shop. Bad makeup etc, said he'd found himself , he was serious, he seemed happy so fair play to him,

@BikerPetehall70 I've been accused of being a 'gatekeeper' in the community in the past. I'd have an opinion about your friend, but he probably wouldn't want to hear it!

@tracycoyle if its genuine its genuine! Live your life! But! When these cunts are making women's lives difficult and demanding to be treated as women when they're pre op NO! And the sports thing NO, genitalia and hormones are only part of it ! Bone structure and muscle attachments are still bigger stronger etc,

@tracycoyle I've got to ask! If its 30 years since your transition, and you made the right decision all that time ago, why are you still telling people that ypou transitioned to a woman

@BikerPetehall70 in areas where my experience is useful for others, I like to give people context for my comments. As a general rule, I don't. Also, in our current culture, people seek the means to hurt others and I like to take that option off the table.

4

Honestly, it depends on the condition of my heart at a given moment. I'm more generous at some times than others. I find it presently difficult to muster generosity.

govols Level 8 June 17, 2020
3

Trans women make me think of mental illness. You can pretend you are another sex. You can dress like another sex. You can flood your body with hormones of the opposite sex. You can even have surgery to alter secondary sexual characteristics. Do all these things and every hair, every nail clipping, every flake of dandruff will still proclaim your genetic gender.

The body's genetic gender is imprinted into every cell with a nucleus. It's wired into brain structure. It's a controlling factor in the endocrine system. It controls development of the musculoskeletal systems.

You can alter some of this complex, suble physiology by flooding the body with estrogen, but the body will reassert its genetic gender whenever the flood stops.

That is true, and roughly, irrelevant.

Most transsexuals are not trying to 'proclaim' anything. We are who we are and are trying to live as normal as possible. And yes, I was born male, and will die male. Doesn't stop me from living and being accepted as a woman.

3

I think they are just insane. Apex legends took Bloodhound from us over these unhinged people. They are like crazy children throwing a tantrum and getting their way. Nothing will ever be enough please these crazy people because what’s making them unhappy is inside of them.

I'd like to hope that you can distinguish between a political movement and individual liberty.

@tracycoyle so far, 46 people agree that they are suffering from a mental disorder

@HauntedFalcon Gender Identity Disorder is the diagnosis the vast majority of transsexuals obtain. Like noting I was born male and will die as such, I tend to acknowledge the reality, while putting it into context.

I'll note that a disorder does not always compromise the ability to function in society, while an illness almost always does...

@HauntedFalcon And no matter how many people VOTE an opinion, it does not create a reality.

3

Penis tucked back between legs, standing in front of a mirror. Like that scene from the silence of lambs.

Lt-JW Level 8 June 17, 2020

Ah, right... I have to watch that movie again. Seems like a lifetime ago when it came out (sigh). Then again, he's not really trans according to this:

@Admin absolute classic, I watched the whole trilogy again recently!

A mentally ill character in a movie being mentally ill is NOT a viable image of real people...just sayin'

2

Some who has actively made physical changes to their body is what I would call trans woman, unless it started as a woman and became a man. Actually, mental illness is probably best, but then I figure most leftist have mental illness. 🤔

2

I think of nothing. Because I’ve heard this term thrown around so much, that I don’t even care to think about it. It has nothing to do with me. It doesn’t affect my life. And chances are with the wishy-washy fickle nature of gender politics, the whole definition could change five or six times in the next year. So I’ll just stop confusing my own brain in the meantime until the dust settles and people actually want to tell meExactly what it is and why I should give a shit.

Until then I think of nothing because I don’t even think about it.

2

I like women with vaginas. I like white women with vaginas. I am a white male. I have a penis. This makes me the most hated species of human on earth.

RAZE Level 7 June 17, 2020
2

A cesspool.

2

I don't think anything until I have more information. All of the above may be appropriate depending on the individual and circumstance.

I have some problems with the idea that people can make themselves whatever they want. All of us have a negotiated identity.

wolfhnd Level 8 June 17, 2020

Nice. Admitting non-knoweldge is the greatest form of wisdom.

2

Any problems using a trans woman for this function?

According to Board Rule 360-3-. 02(12), it is unprofessional conduct for a physician to conduct such an examination of a patient of the opposite sex without a chaperone present. A patient may ask for a chaperone if one is not present during a gynecological examination

Xtra Level 8 June 17, 2020
1

I Truly feel that society has done a great job at indoctrinating our youth with the whole « my body, my choice » movement which has spiralled out of Control to allow it to apply to everything! Including science! You can’t change fundamental science that we were born with either a penis, or a vagina and in some cases both (hermaphroditism). I have done a few studies of my own and have found that over 90% of the 1000 LGBTQ community I’ve spoken with grew up in a broken home and were often suppressed by a friend, or family member of the opposite sex...

I kinda agree with your personal study's results, but add that if I talked to 1000 straights I would find a similar metric - at least not that far different.

I grew up in a functioning and cohesive family, non-abusive. Maybe that is why I am in the minority of transsexuals that did not abuse drugs or alcohol, or attempt (or even thought about) suicide.

Dysfunctional families lead to all kinds of emotional/psychological issues. Being transsexual on top of that just makes it harder. And those issues really need to be addressed and stable before transition.

1

A transwoman is someone assigned male at birth who seeks to elicit female gendering from everyone, including themselves, through the "rites of passage" called "transition." Metaphorically, they could like anything between a caterpillar beginning to spin a cocoon to a butterfly that has yet to fly.

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