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In what circumstances is it fair for those who feel marginalized to blame those who succeed?

According to [lovehasnolabels.com]
Marginalization means "The process of putting or keeping someone (or a group of people) in a powerless position within a society by not giving them an active voice, identity, or place within it. Marginalization can show up in subtle or overt actions, such as using derogatory language, assuming someone’s accomplishments are not based on merit, and expecting individuals to act a certain way based on stereotypes."

Admin 8 Apr 25
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20 comments

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1

Everybody is marginalized in certain situations. A college professor walks into a redneck bar and is marginalized, a redneck walks into a college symposium and is marginalized. It is a fact of human nature that we will all marginalize others in certain situations. A man runs into the doctor's office yelling that he broke his arm in two places. The doctor tells him to stay out of those places. We get into trouble when we try to place ourselves where we do not belong. It is not the aristocrat telling me that I don't know my place, it is me telling myself I have no business in the cockpit flying an airliner. There are places where we each are competent to be a valuable person, and places where we have no business. The trick is to know the difference. Another trick is to never be a victim. We all run into unpleasant situations by chance or by our own doing. Accept the fact that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time or you screwed up. Being a victim gives your power to others. Never being a victim gives you power, dignity and reminds you of your humanity.

Pand0ro Level 7 May 23, 2020
0

Are you referring to the normal interactions of the human animal? Or somthing else?

Phil777 Level 6 May 11, 2020
1

This question is fundamentally flawed because it assumes the concept of "fair" is something definable when in practice it is an entirely relative perspective. What is fair for Alice could easily be the opposite for Bob and his circumstances/worldview/level of intelligence/comprehension. Therefore Bob will always find a way to feel marginalized if he searches for it because the 'fairness' of any given scenario is arbitrary to the unique & non absolute circumstances which form Bob's perspective. This dichotomy persists for right & wrong, good & evil, truth & fiction and any other arbitrary lines in the sand that we abuse to justify ourselves and our positions in society.

Is Bob's feeling of marginalization a reflection of his circumstances? Yes
Would Bob's perspective change if his concept of what fair is changed? Yes
Would Bob circumstance change if his perspective changed? Perhaps.

And that is where the rubber meets the road. The choice then becomes the devil you know vs the devil you do not and is a question of one's personal fortitude, bravery, and ability vs their fear, doubt, and lack of resources.

The question becomes not one for society to judge but one for the individual.

0

Marginalization = freedom. Lack of marginalization means it has been artificially achieved via government edict - "equality" laws - or through draconian social pressure. In the end, it comes down to whether one believes in "equality". Are people equal? If they are not, then some will inevitably be marginalized; marginalized based on their lack of beauty, lack of social status, lack of money, and lack of intelligence, to name but a few. This is the primary reason why so-called "racial equality" will never be achieved in America, since the races are not equal in their ability to create civilization. Therefore, the lesser of the races will invariably be marginalized, leading to endless and unresolvable social disruption - as we have now in America and the Western world.

0

Fairness is such an infantile principle. If someone is governed by their feelings to the extent they cannot achieve anything because of such trivialities as "derogatory language" then they are being marginalized, and they deserve it.

The solution isn't to blame other people, the solution is to grow up, get out into the world and do something.

3

I have witnessed people come here from 3rd world conditions that are more poor than ANY deprived person in America on a scale that most would not believe. The poorest person in America is rich compared to them. And yet, the 3rd worlder made it here with little or no help. Learning English, not outdated cultural language is the key. Yet, the left is all over the place pushing "primitive culture and native language" In some of these 3rd world families only the ones that learned English made it, the rest are still there.
This is a prime example of the marginalize clap trap that the left devises that suits their agenda but holds real people down.

5

This is more a question of human character than relative success. In turn, this is a question of moral attributes of character, and here we stray into standards of morality.

I believe pain is the common denominator of human life. You can spend life complaining about the pain. Complaining about someone else's success is just another aspect of complaining about your own pain. You can, however, accept pain as a part of a life that also includes beauty and joy.

3

I think unattractive people suffer from marginalization. It is very hard to succeed if you are truly unattractive.

Two examples illustrate the point, Candice Owens and Ocasio Cortez. Despite the rights insistence that anyone can succeed, that is clearly not the case. Despite the left's claim to not discriminate that is clearly not the case. Both for various ideological reasons are in denial over the huge role genetics play.

Everyone has heard "beauty is skin deep". That is clearly not the case. Sigmund Freud was on to something. He just didn't have science on his side. Everything is about fitness. For any sexually reproducing species sex is a central instinct. Beauty as we now know is a sign of good genetics, at least in terms of health and fitness.

Where it gets tricky is that are prerequisite tribal instincts are incompatible with civilization. We are designed for an easy but unstable environmentin which long term objectives are incompatible with fitness. In such an environment a fast lifestyle will result in higher fitness. A slow lifestyle in which denial of immediate gratification, long term commitments, extreme prejudice and rigid hierarchies are requirements for civilization which has it's own "unnatural" fitness advantage.

Unless you grasp these simple realities you are going to bang your head on the wall trying to solve the mysteries of social failure. Head start didn't work because it didn't take into account genetics. The war on drugs didn't work because it didn't take into account genetics. Genetic predispositions have a great deal to do with success or failure. The great tragedy of political correctness is we can't talk about them. That however is just the first deadly sin the second is the failure of our intellectuals to recognize that freewill is a social construct as real as money or any of the other abstract trappings of civilization such as languages especially math.

wolfhnd Level 8 Apr 26, 2020
8

my sister and I came from a very poor family There would never be a penny to inherit. As a young mom she worked with her husband on hot southern roofs. He began severely abusing her and the children. She had to leave. She took what she knew about roofing and started her own company. She sacrificed everything to grow it into a profitable company employing 30 people. She constantly tried to help her family and their family to rise out of the poverty. She housed them , fed them, educated them, and sometimes spoiled them just to show them how good their life could be. Out of the 12 people she helped, only 2 have responded to better their lives. The others kept taking until she would give no more and then they stole from her or turned against her. It’s a small example of society but a firsthand one.

1

I see the word marginalized as a convenient label for those who want/expect a boost in society.

10

I try to avoid woke-terms like “marginalization” where ever possible. Using these terms in discussion is throwing in the towel to post-modern pessimists.

The first step in deconstructing a society is to convince people that they are hopeless victims of a system that’s rigged against them. The oppression theory equates affluence with corruption, holding one to account as “shaming”, and replaces responsibility and self-sufficiency with blaming and feeling cheated.

GeeMac Level 8 Apr 26, 2020
9

At the risk of being accused of being pedantic, may I suggest that the question needs to be changed. The opposite of success is failure, not marginalisation. Not being marginalised does not always lead to success and it is still possible for those who might appear to be marginalised to succeed. The question is therefore whether there is a belief that it is literally impossible for someone to succeed because they have been marginalised and whether that belief is justified. Also if that belief is justified can the blame be placed on those who have not been marginalised. However real marginalisation is something like the Cast system in India it is not poor versus rich in the West which restricts opportunities but doesn’t actively prevent them in the same way. The issue is more about opportunities for success rather than success itself.
Perception or belief is not fact or truth and it is common for those who have been marginalised to have created the situation themselves by opting out of a system. An example is where a particular (minority) sector of society refuses to integrate into mainstream society but then accuses the mainstream of marginalisation because they expect the mainstream to adapt to them not them to adapt to the mainstream. This can certainly be seen in the UK in relation to immigration.
Another point is about expecting people to be based on stereotypes. Stereotypes arise because certain people do behave in certain ways and some people behave and dress in a certain way intentionally because they want to be seen as the stereotype. Stereotypes don’t just appear out of thin air they are usually based on something.

9

Actually I think that the question is two separate issues being conflated as one. IMHO success or failure is a personal assessment and meaningless except when judged by the individual.

As an example, I have been lucky enough to have both sporting and career success, but at no stage did any of the accolades, money, or authority I might have had, mean anything to me. Coming from a broken home the only thing that I ever wanted, was to build a happy family and so my wonderful 5 children and happy 36 year marriage is the only thing that I am really proud of.

Achieving something for vanity's sake is not success, it's narcissism. And so the real question becomes what do YOU consider success, is it money, fame, notoriety, family, security?

Different people have different way's of achieving those goals, and the only real evaluation of success that matters is the individual.

Now if the questions is "Do other people sometimes make it more difficult for you to achieve what you want?" the the answer is clearly yes.

But that is where personal responsibility comes into the discussion. Success by its very definition is an ultimate goal, and nothing in life guarantee's that you will achieve it.

It's not the lack of obstacles, but overcoming them that makes a journey worthwhile, and so if someone gave you everything you wanted, would you consider yourself a success?

Ausi Level 4 Apr 26, 2020
9

If you find yourself with little money in a system that defines itself as just, any disparity of wealth can be portrayed as injustice.

If you are told every day that you are a victim of that system and that others are responsible for your position, you will find evidence everywhere.

Any coincidence can be seen as discrimination.

Every intent to help can be seen as cynical.

Potent psychological tools handled by experts is rampant online.

Well said.

5

Success is NOT a zero sum game. My successes in no way inhibit anyone elses potential for success.

iThink Level 9 Apr 25, 2020

What about for competitive things like Ivy league school admissions? Fire department hires? Upper management and board seats?

@Admin what about them

6

I want to point out a oft overlooked fallacy in the syntax and premise of your question. The word "feel" ("those who FEEL marginalized) is at the heart of so much of what ails and FAILS American Culture here in the 21st century.

Somehow the word "feelings" has been elevated to a status that "trumps" objective and unpopular if not controversial language.

Somehow we have come to exist within a working paradigm where it seems nearly every societal custom and policy is analyzed and criticized through the prism of "offendedness".

There can be no objective analyses and therefore no working or sensible resolution to whatever the subject of the matter may be if it begins with the premise that "feelings" will be the starting point in seeking workable resolutions.

I think a more useful question would be "who in Western Culture is marginalized and how so?"
From that we can define "marginalization" and work out from there as to who is and who is NOT "marginalized" and what to do about it. Feelings decidedly notwithstanding.

iThink Level 9 Apr 25, 2020

I think for your question of "how so", can look at the sports team where it's the coach's decision who will be promoted/play and who will sit out. For the rest of society, who or what plays the part of the coach? Is it the economically successful whites and asians who are deciding or is it impartial market pressure?

Not everyone so inclined needs to go to Princeton or MIT in order to become a astrophysicist. Calculus and thermodynamics and quantum physics are also taught at institutions of "lesser prestiege".

0

Before we can answer your question, we need to unpack the loaded words you used. If marginalization is about a power dynamic, why do you use "those who succeed" to describe the target of blame rather than "those who have power?" Moreover, why require living people to be the target when complex systems and historical events could be? Finally, if blame is about assigning guilt for some harm, that implies an argument of some sort. The way the question is currently written, the obvious answer is "when they have valid evidence." But certainly you were looking to have a deeper discussion. Unless your assumption is that such blame is never justified, but then that would make it a rhetorical question.

Side note: Alternatively, one could argue that it's always fair for someone to air such grievances, valid or not, using their right of free speech.

Are success and power two different things? Do the basketball players have the power to play because they're successful at the sport or that they kept the other players on the bench? I like your answer of "when they have valid evidence"... what evidence do you think is the most valid or defensible?

@Admin Yes, success and power are two different things.

@Admin Success is defined personally.
Power is defined publicly.

Any evidence you think is the most valid or defensible is personal.
Any evidence the public thinks is the most valid or defensible is cultural.

@WilyRickWiles Do you agree with my assessment?

10

According to that definition, anybody who supports Donald Trump should feel marginalized. That’s definitely the desired goal of the Twitter/Facebook/YouTube censors.

I don’t feel marginalized. But I’m definitely pissed. And I’m not alone. When they get the conflict they think they want, they’ll learn what marginalized really means.

3

"marginalization" is in the eye of the beholder and is like "poverty" in the West merely relative. I have never agreed with the idea that my own sense of personal success or failure has much if anything to do with anyones opinion of me.
In short I never have felt the impulse to blame nor to credit anyone but myself for my sense of personal achievement or failure.

iThink Level 9 Apr 25, 2020
7

Generally I'd never say it's okay to place blame on others either due to one's own shortcomings or lack of perceived success. While not perfect, our free market society offers opportunity for those who take the time to seek it out.

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