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Can assholes help move a conversation forward? While our posting policy here may be summarized as, "don't be an asshole", there is a claim that sometimes we need mean-spirited troll-types to verbally "blow things up" so that cooler, and more reasoned heads can clean up the mess. What say you?

This topic was inspired by today's Rubin Report interview with Mike Cernovich - a person with a checkered past when it comes to online civility who now disavows some of his tactics. Caveat: I don't know much about Mike so let's make this a general topic.

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Admin 8 May 14
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9

Trolling can be highly effective as a political strategy but it operates on bad faith, and is therefore incompatible with serious debate.

There is no “trolling” in academic circles.

I don't know. There have been some infamous trolling in professional, peer-reviewed journals where two or more academics start bashing on each other. It's less in your face, but it's there. And academic debates can get quite nasty. That one debate with Jordan Peterson and Michael Eric Dyson was one big troll from Dyson--which was ironic given the topic. Dyson was clearly a troll-provocateur, disingenuous, with no intention toward a reasonable pursuit of higher understanding.

Really?
Some of the worst “trolls” I’ve ever seen were “Academians” ... they believe themselves and their “knowledge” to be irrefutable...
At the age of about 8 I began applying a needle to their “thought balloons” and there were certainly LOTS of “Troll” responses ... of course, the concept of “troll” as used here didn’t exist ...
That was several decades ago.
I STILL spend a lot of time among “Academians” ... at least they’re sort of capable of carrying on a “reasonable” conversation ... I STILL apply the needle on a regular basis.
You know the best part?
I’ve got a batting average of about 98% in terms of being “correct” ... which pisses them off ...
AND
When they start throwing around their “Credentials”, I make a point of telling them honestly that I have NO “Papered Credentials” ... not in anything “Academic” anyway but I have TONS of Information and Knowledge and Books AND the Ability to make it All “Applicable”.

I can only hope you were being sarcastic ...

Prove it

5

Trolling at this point is a bottomless pit tactic. Lies of all types, personal slants and general rhetorical spittle intended to stop you and hurt you. Being an Asshole at this point is knowing that the truth is the most jagged and painful weapon. It will hurt feelings but it must be delivered and sometimes twisted once inserted. My read on the online rhetorical exchange is to make your points swiftly using the entire bag of tricks. Humor, links, disdain, hope, dread what ever fits. Let the trolls come. Once they begin point out your tactics vs their attacks. Mock them. Do this a few times. Shoot down the silly meme...the veiled threat....the personal attack. Point out these have no point. They do not change the reality. With practice you will know just how far to provoke the poor little fools then declare victory and move on in triumph!

3

I don’t know about “assholes” or “trolls”.
Trolls usually impart nothing of value. It seems to me that they jump in, post a one-line caustic “statement” and jump out again. It seems to me that they are simply puking up ... or propping up ... Dogmatic thoughts and Talking Points ... usually with nothing like Original Thinking behind them.

Now, if by “assholes” you mean; “Contrarians”, I think (often being seen as one myself) that they provide a necessary function in ANY conversation involving thought.
Without contrarians I wonder if there is a “conversation” at all?
Without a contrarian sticking in opposing ideas and information, the entire thread becomes an “Echo Chamber” ... a group of “Cheerleaders” at a Verbal Football game where the only players in the game are the “Home Team” and the “Away Team” never shows up ... what’s the point? Outside of a “warm fuzzy feeling”, I see none.

Debate ... from school many of you might recall Debate Teams ... to be of any value, requires an opponent ... an opposing view in order to be productive. In actuality, the best “Debates” came from systems where, for a period of time, Team #1 debates FOR a particular topic and Team #2 debates AGAINST that topic, THEN at “Half Time” the debate SWITCHES where Team #1 debates AGAINST ... and etc.
By being forced to argue against YOUR viewpoint much is learned ... if you are paying attention. It requires that you look at something from “inside the head” of your opponent. It requires you to TRY to Understand HOW they could possibly think like that.
Once you’ve “been there” you can see the flaws in Your Own Viewpoint and can work to strengthen Your Argument in the future.

So ... I don’t know about the definition being used for “asshole” so it’s hard to say if they have merit.
I have my own definition of “troll” and I doubt they have any simply because they’re like a heckler in the stands ... a Big Mouth with No Actual Input.

Truly. I've done that for years on various boards, starting with alt.politics, where I'd assume different personas from different perspectives. Once I was mistaken for a French Socialist because I always referred to the United States from an outside perspective with a critical eye on police powers and military interventionism. It's entertaining to watch everyone flip out about how my leftist beliefs are what's wrong with the world when, in truth, I'm an American Conservative that borders on American Imperialist (in the institutional context, that's a discussion for another day). People assume too much.

The idea, in how I approach discussions, is to CAUSE a discussion because I despise echo chambers. Watch people defend their positions and see if they resort to emotional cognition or if they can make a sound argument. Many on the right have a tendency to reduce themselves to cheap argumentative tricks (instead of having a conversation they treat it like a debate where it's some absurd point system approach to a "discussion" which tends to render in-depth conversation into a superficial waste of time. "I win." You win what? Ben Sharpiro is a good example of this. He can do both but he is, above all else, a debater not a conversationalist).

Assholes, in my opinion, are usually just crass in their expression and unconcerned with tact. I don't blame them, really, in the modern world. Trolls are out to insult people and derail conversation. Shitlords, as they're called, mix the two selectively depending on what faction they identify with.

Just my opinion, but I agree with you that we do not take enough time to consider arguments from different perspectives. Certainly, there are good ideas and bad ideas, but if no one is willing to admit that they're wrong and even consider a different view - how do they know which camp they fall into? Appears to me that most of them take it on faith.

3

Drawing insensitive people out in the open and exposing partisan agendas is good thing .

3

I do this to learn and to hone my own thinking. I'm not doing this to persuade. So, while the assholes annoy me, they're mostly irrelevant. If they ever have a good point, and it's exceedingly rare, I have no problem taking it for my own and moving on. Of course, I do get stuck sometimes because I forget what I'm doing and start swatting them...

chuckpo Level 8 May 14, 2019

Forgot to answer the main question. We were having this discussion years ago. We decided assholes were conversation starters, and without them you're in an echo chamber.

@DavidicLineage

I wouldn't let my ex read that lol. I called her great all the time.

@DavidicLineage great quote!!

2

It would be interesting to hear from @BooRadley on this topic. She banned me from her "News From All Views" group for allegedly being a troll. From my perspective, I was just trying to hold her to a higher standard of argumentation. An outside observer might even have suspected her for the troll, as she kept dragging out the debate across multiple posts, and peppering me with profanity. Moreover, it's a bit hypocritical because she's constantly complaining in her posts about being censored on other social media platforms.

So lets see what they are talking about, I would like to read the whole discussion in question

2

I chose Fact Based Trolls (TM) But with caveats. My personal example is Rosa Parks. She's been sanctified by the history but I figure she was a stubborn, angry, sore and tired person and that was exactly the hero we needed right there. Churchill and Socrates were jerks who helped save the world.

That's not really a support of the troll, almost always the world is better off if they would fall into a Cheeto induced coma. But every once in a while that jackass 6 std out from the norm is useful.

2

Trolls are dicks. Pussies won't say shit, even with a mouthful. Assholes get their label by saying the things everyone needs to hear but no one wants to hear.

2

I reluctantly picked the first one cause let's face it, diplomacy doesn't come with a round room or a punching bag, so they enable ya to blow off steam & get back to your margarita. For some reason i just don't think they take it all that personally.

TommyB Level 7 May 14, 2019
2

Trolls can can be colorful individuals, mean, harmful, funny, looking to Converse out loneliness, sadness, etc. Let's all take a minute and understand when we are reading a post and decided to reply we were trolling for a post to comment on. So let evaluate our reason and the why we reply. To each post and comment, to contribute more and not take away from not only the joy and education of the subject but what others think of us. Leave thing's better then you found them you will feel good about it
Just a NOTE my husband told me on our first date some will tell you i am an asshole, I'm telling you the real truth i am a cosiment asshole, he has helped move our marriage foward in many positive ways for 26 years and counting.

@DavidicLineage you can use any verage you like and still leave a lasting educational empression on the subject of what and where you come from on the issue, I was not saying we have to care how other's feel about it I for one do not. We can be assholery without being stand out assholes, by playing on the subconscious mind. Example abortion debate every now in then toss out a pic of the baby in different stages of the womb.

1

For me, it's all about proportions. I don't have patience for threads where the thoughtful discussion is buried in too much mud. I think I'm not particularly unusual in making these judgments, so a thread or group may be choked out by a high proportion of trolling.

1

I am a self proclaimed asshole. I’m argumentative and disagreeable.I am often condescending, sarcastic and arrogant. I am also correct a good portion of the time and at least have the class to know when I’ve been bested by fact and reason. I am also informed enough to know what I don’t know and have a real desire to know more. So if you’re going to be an asshole be at least be a classy reasonable asshole.

You can be a “better asshole” if you refrain from jumping into topics that you haven’t done “due diligence” ... a bunch of research.
If you’ve done the research ahead of getting involved in the conversation, people will STILL think you’re an “asshole” BUT mostly because they’re pissed at you being RIGHT.
I like THAT Version of “asshole” and often find myself in that place.
However, I DO a lot of research and I AVOID getting into discussions where I “Don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground” ...
Being RIGHT is it’s own reward.

1

Listen I did not vote... because it all depends of on simple thing....

If the conversation is driven by hypocrisy. (on one side) Which is the case of 99.9 of those subjects that are coming up today. 8 billions of people on this planet and we are more driven by self interest than any other time in history. A lot of people today have a chip on their shoulder and want to see the world burn... Just because... And they want it by attacking the base of this civilization... not for the best of everyone... but for their own self esteem (to feel better about themself and to think they are better than others) Or for their own self interest and to have and edge or and advantage on others.

When logic... facts... historical facts ... and plain old good sense is not taken in consideration.... Than YES Trolls, assholes, cunts, dicks and the whole kitchen sink is thrown into the battle and are needed.

Which brings up one question..... If I am an asshole....Does that make me an enemy of the green new deal ? because you know... Methane and Gobal Warming...And the world will end up in 12 years... Because of me of course...And because I am white and I have a penis...and because I am against all religion (Especially one)...And yada yada yada... If you smell my drift...

1

Identity politics would be a good topic for a post in this group, @Admin

Racist.

1

If I understand what the word Toll means then I don't see where they make any positive contribution to open and civil dialogue. The troll does not necessarily have to resort to name calling or to be uncivil to be a nuisance. Their tactics are often similar to the childish game of "I know I am but what are you" - "yes but xyz also said, did, failed to do...blah blah blah...which does what. It puts the person(s) who are focused on a particular topic into a defensive posture. It detracts from the dialogue. For example it is a perfectly valid criticism of Islamic culture to point out the appalling practical application of "sharia" in the forms of murdering homosexuals, throwing acid in the faces of women, child marriage, public beating and stoning of women, FMG etc. So there we are discussing these atrocities being done in the name of a "religion of peace" (ohhh puke!) and along comes a troll who all too quickly says something like well those things happen or have happened in other places/cultures - their favorite go to here is either USA or they talk about the Crusaders. So there you are; if you attempt to address this misdirection you're stuck in a 2 hour back and forth trying to get back to the original point - in this example that would be the bizarre, primitive, retrograde practices of sharia and hopefully what can be done about stopping that behavior or at least preventing that kind of activity being practiced with impunity here in the West. If you're stuck defending the "crusaders" of all things or trying to defend the accusations against USA then you feel as though your time was futile. It's NEVER a good thing to be an asshole.

iThink Level 9 May 14, 2019
1

In my personal experience, when you approach another in a hostile tone chances are high you will not reach them with your message in the long run, you will ultimately be talking to yourself. For example, while my own views lean heavily to the political right, I hold a few views that some conservatives would disagree with me on (which is why I more closely align with libertarian views and not hard-right views by the way), one view in particular I hold that could be considered controversial is that I am largely pro choice when it comes to the abortion debate regardless of the fact I do not have a personally favorable opinion of abortion procedures. When someone chats with me and starts babbling on about how abortion is murder without going more into detail(s), I ignore them and frankly don't care about their views no more than they care about mine. So no, being a troll when it comes to debates/conversations adds very little if any value to a serious conversation, mutual respect is where it's at and going the civil route.

@Guido_Provolone I wouldn't say Trump supporters were less eloquent...

@Guido_Provolone Remember the rather trolling remark Hillary made, almost half the adult American population were a basket of deplorables, and those so-called deplorables were far more eloquent in how they handled said remark (by voting for Trump).

I’m in the same boat. I find abortion morally reprehensible but remain tacitly pro choice. A hard line to walk

0

haven't been here for years ... tried and tested and it came up shit ... or abou dorrah ...like all the sites connected with this lot .. poseurs oozing ..limited unctuous dribbler narcist parrot low grade gangs pimping and running to mummy to have their righteous parrot agenda enforced ... and it worked ... still does it seems ... bell curve says stupid is ever the majority and stupid is never able to know it's stupid ... anyone obviously intelligent getting booted ... still see the same complaints here from unctuous arse maggots ... GET WOKE GO BROKE .... looks like it's happening ... yay ... censor this and i'll never get curious again yay yay yay

0

Trolls need to be called out for every bodies sake including their own.

0

Me: Wow! It never once occurred to me that a single thread could over-validate a troll position :/

IDW Topic of the day: Hold my beer!

0

We need another option in the poll:

Trolls don't advance the conversation, but censoring them is the wrong response.

0

IMO trolls are a vital part of progress. They say things many will not and force the dark side of things to the front of the talks in many cases. It does cause many to just get defensive and angry but it also causes people who really think about things to account for things that are not part of the "civilized" discussion of things. I believe everyone, no matter what approach they take, can add to the conversation in one way or another.

george Level 7 May 15, 2019
0

Short answer. No
Long answer. Noooo

Trolls are conversational napalm, blithely spraying red herrings and ad hominem into genuine conversations that work through issues.

Trolls are not to be confused with confident people who earnestly express their opinions without worry of what others think of them. THESE people “move” conversation — not the pussy brigade of trolls who attempt to derail real people talking about real things. .

Yandarn Level 7 May 15, 2019
0

An hour and forty-five minutes?
I can’t watch people ramble on for more than 15-20 minutes ... at least not “opinion” stuff.
I can barely listen that long ...
Well, except for Great Courses ...

This guy says he’s an Islamophobe ... does he know what a “Phobia” is?

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