Why are we losing all of our biological women lesbians? Non-binary, queer and other labels are being used. Anything besides 'gay women.'
The problem is a failure to understand dysmorphia vs dysphoria. But social acceptance or non-acceptance IS driving a percentage (maybe a large one) and that is fundamentally the wrong reason to alter your physical body.
I don't know that it is misogynist (internal or otherwise), but it IS apparently 'self hate' to a dangerous degree.
I'm a lesbian, and honestly I disagree with the whole "lost a lesbian" language. I'm not a lost straight woman.
Arielle does make a good point about the growing number of females who do transition, and I think that's always going to be something people will be too scared to touch no matter what.
I do not disagree with everything said in this video, but I DO disagree with three major things:
This is not "losing another lesbian." Elliot is not a lesbian. He's trans.
I don't like the "if they really are trans" kind of language. Elliot is 33 years old. This is not a child identifying as trans because their friends in school did it first. This is a mature adult person who has a lot to lose. I see no reason to question IF he is trans.
I am disappointed and irritated about the decision to use Elliot's coming out as an opportunity to talk about concerns about transition. The concerns are completely valid (I do not disagree with the concerns raised in the video), but I do disagree with responding to someone's coming out this way, as it sounds invalidating to me.
On a side note, Elliot has done something very important. When celebrities come out, it helps normalize being trans and makes it easier for people to talk about and understand. My mother is a big fan of The Umbrella Academy and we had a wonderful conversation today. She has been struggling with my identity for 12+ years. But today, we had a good conversation.
Another big point people are missing here is that Elliot’s partner identifies as a lesbian. Now, because of his transition, his partner will be expected to change her sexual orientation to continue the relationship or be called a TERF. She recently said when questioned online that her sexuality is “none of your business,” and that she’s “fluid.” Alright. I guess it’s okay that you totally abandon your sexuality if you check all of the virtue signaling boxes.
Okay, so before I submit my comment, I must preface by stating that this is my first time on this platform and my first time my unfiltered and very personal opinion. Let it also be known that I am very reticent to share my thoughts and experience, out of fear of backlash and/or a citation from the PC police. For those who are offended, please understand that this is simply my experience and opinion, and I do my very best to keep an open mind and attention to others' experiences, but I also attention to legitimate data and facts.
First, and foremost, I have nothing but love and respect for all of my fellow trans, non-binary, queer, questioning, bi, gay, and lesbian people Furthermore, I am, and identify as, a lipstick lesbian who is happily married to another lipstick lesbian who has known since I was a little girl that I am, will always be, and was born a lesbian; the same is true for my wife. Apparently, the term "lipstick lesbian" is considered, by some, to be an outdated and, perhaps, derogatory term; nonetheless, I am not offended by or consider it as such, so I employ that "label" proudly.
Over the past few years, my wife and I have befriended, supported, and mentored several young women who attend(ed) the same private, all-women's college we did, and all of them came out as very proud lesbians when they started--and even before--they started college (keep in mind, this college is located in a smallish town in Georgia, and we were much older non-traditional students). However, right before, or after graduation, all of them came or have come out as trans or straight--going so far as saying, "I'm not gay anymore or I'm trans, I never identified as a lesbian." Hell, my ex-step-, emphatically declared herself a very proud "d***" for years, until she started dating, and eventually marrying a F to M trans man. When I asked her what that would mean for her being a lesbian, she curtly corrected me by telling me she never identified that way. Don't get me wrong, I know and understand, that everyone's journey to coming out, is anything but easy, being, and identifying as who s/he/they is/are can be/is/feel confusing, non-linear, unique, scary, awkward, exhilarating, ostracizing, freeing, etc. I, myself, identified as a bisexual woman because that felt safer and more affirmative of my femininity than coming out as a lesbian. I was born and grew up in the 80s when being a lesbian was almost never talked about or was represented by the stereotypical butch lesbian. Again, I am not bashing butch lesbians, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with being one, it's just not how I felt or identified as. Suffice to say, I didn't have access to any other representations of being a lesbian, so I remained in the closet because I was afraid that I wouldn't be accepted or able to be "girly". I also grew up in a mixed-race, culturally diverse household that was tolerant of everyone, including those who were/are LGBTQIA, just as long as I was not one of them. For example, when I broached the subject with my , she was quick to shut me down by saying "you're NOT a lesbian!" Further confounding things was the fact that my worked with and had many gay male friends who were constantly putting down and throwing shade at lesbians. I entered into a marriage with a man, foolishly thinking and desperately trying to convince myself and others that I was hetero because I was afraid of being even more rejected, abandoned and emotionally abused than I already was. I was certain that coming out as bisexual would be a safe have because I could acknowledge and give myself permission to be attracted to women and still be accepted because I was with a man. On the contrary, I was alienated even MORE: I was too straight to be gay and too gay to be straight. Some people went so far as to declare that bisexuality didn't really exist and was nothing but a cop-out which is untrue and invalidating.
As time went by, I tried harder and harder to ignore and suppress who I truly am, to the point of almost having a nervous breakdown. In the words of my spirit : "If it's too loud, turn it up!" So I finally did. As hard and painful as it was, I was so relieved to come out of the closet, it felt like someone drowning, gasping for air, finally being able to breathe. Thusly, having to experience or be told that being a lesbian was just a phase or a fad (questioning and experimenting, aside) is insulting, pitiful, and diminishes the fact that being a lesbian isn't fashionable, trendy, or popular that can be taken off like a piece of clothing, it's a fundamental part of who I am and something I did not choose, just like I did not choose to be born premature with Cerebral Palsy and short with dark hair.
My wife and I have conversations about this topic often, but feel like we can't come out (pun intended) and say anything out of concern our questions and opinions won't be heard but will be met with being called bigots, feminazis, and/or transphobes. We've pondered and genuinely wondered if coming out as trans (for some NOT all) is another attempt or way to conform to the patriarchal heteronormative paradigm, as in, "now that I'm a man or woman, I can fit nearly into the expectation and acceptance of being straight and unstigmatized. Don't come for me, it's a genuine question. Enlighten me.
I think pbuck (below) states it most correctly.
My point of view is that ... especially for younger people ... its easier to call oneself something like “trans” simply because its “cooler” than gay, bi or lesbian and ... because it masks confusion.
If you call yourself gay, bi or lesbian ... especially when you’re young ... there was a time that you suddenly had a bunch of close, supportive “friends” thus, someone who was a “Social Misfit” or “Outlier” could suddenly belong.
However, sooner or later, you were going to be expected to “prove” that.
In the 70’s and 80’s there were lots of people who called or considered themselves “bisexual” because they frequently found themselves “playing” on both sides of the fence until they made up their mind. Truthfully, they were more aptly described as “Hedonists” (if it feels good ... do it)
Today, I think the trans or queer thing is often simply a hiding place for people who are confused or sexually introverted ... that is, I think that by calling oneself “trans” for most people, its a way to take oneself off the ... uh ... “meat rack” because, if someone approaches you, you can suddenly be a “trans” pony or fish or male or ... and thus be unavailable regardless of what the other person is.
Then, there are those who will adopt the “trans” label because of all the “special rights” they get ... can a white male decide to be a “trans” minority (brown) female and apply for College Entrance to a Woman’s School and receive Tuition Assistance based on Minority Ethnicity and Gender? (Why not?)
Page is cute as hell.!..She wants to be a man?. Sooooo, what,,, does that make ME gay now.?
Oh my God, I need a drink. I can't keep up with all of this..
And she wants to be a man? Is she nuts? See how much of a man she wants to be if (GOD FORBID) she is ever on a sinking ship and they shout "Women and children first"...
I absolutely agree with you about "gender nonconforming."
Including "masculine" women and "feminine" men, or simply people who don't perform gender-based roles.
But I don't know how you go from that thinking to making a leap into conservative ideology. Which is the birthplace of misogyny...?
It's okay to think that progressive politics are wrong in lots of ways.
But there is no truer place that devalues women than conservative politics, including Trump et al. They won't tolerate women who don't toe their lines. You don't see any um "gender-noncomforming" women in the administration, staff, or frankly anywhere near them, right?
One can both agree that gender-nonconforming is a thing, that women are to be valued equally, that it's a wonderful thing to be a woman and also love women. Without going over to where misogyny lives. The fact that it's spreading is a problem based on "bros" taking over progressive politics (see Bernie, and Rogan, and overlap with Trump base).
I truly hope Elliot Page will find peace, contentment, and happiness (and that he learns how to spell his new name correctly <snerk>. I don't know if he's posted it to his substack (because, subscription), but I am privy through one of my networks to Andrew Sullivan wondering how someone can come out as both nonbinary and trans. After thought, I think it's the definition of "anyone who presents differently from the gender they were assigned at birth [sic]." But Sullivan followed on with wondering about no mention of an intent to become a man, or a new identification as such. Yeah, I wonder that, too—because, absent that, this does look something like another case of "losing" a lesbian to internalized sexism.
Thanks for making a video about this. When I saw the news I thought it was some sick April fool's joke but then it's not April or anywhere near that time of year. 2020 is progressively getting worse. Ellen Page used to be someone that I looked up to but now she is a liar and a fraud to me. All the words she said about being a proud lesbian fall away now. What is happening that people hate being women so much. It's wonderful to be a women and I'm proud to call myself a lesbian. I see no wrong in lesbians being fem or more butch presenting but still only loving women. Why is lesbianism trying to be so inclusive when fundamentally it excludes some just naturally. Why are people being so weak and self hating. Next we will have people claiming to be unicorns and there is only one gender (that of unicorns). Sigh I feel like we are living in a world of uneducated degenerates.
I think this is a tough conversation, but a relevant one. When I came out as FTM trans, I was met immediately with lesbian women, or allies of lesbian women, who guilted me for transitioning out of homophobic fears. To be completely and totally honest, this idea hadn’t crossed my mind prior to transitioning. I wanted to transition because I wanted to eventually have male anatomy and a male body, and be seen as a male. But when these women confronted me on my transition, I could totally see their points of view.
However, I think there is a bigger picture here. Why are some women transitioning and then de-transitioning? It’s because they originally transitioned for the wrong reasons (internal hatred of themselves, internalized homophobia, etc). And because of this, we should be really focusing on the issues that spark these feelings. Why do some women hate being women? How devastating is it that the only “way out” of getting hated on for same- attraction is transitioning to the opposite gender?
The whole thing is such a large discussion, but it’s true that there are many people transitioning for the wrong reasons now- all we can do is support them and make sure they’re being taken care of.
I will be purposefully very vague. But in my life I had someone come out as trans close to me.
Now, I have been having an EXTREMELY hard time with the lockdowns. I'm going insane. I'm so lonely and scared (we live in a particularly dangerous area for the violence that has been doing on in the past couple months). I'm just having a really hard time. And, I had kinda a breakdown in front of them. I kinda want a hug and some sympathy you know? And their response to my cry for help was, "well, you're not trans you'll never have it as hard as me so you should stop complaining". Like....... what? I wish I was lying on the internet for sympathy or attention. I couldn't believe someone I loved said that to me. I'm close to suicidal, but it doesn't matter cause I'm not trans?????? I support them wholeheartedly and this is the response I get?
So long story short, I suspect, (and this is only a suspicion and I know that there are genuine trans people I totally know that) that some might come out as trans for attention. Or sympathy. That's just a suspicion I have. I have many other similar instances of interactions that I have had with this person that point to my suspicion as well. But I don't have the time to write those all down and my fingers hurt.
I grew up in the 90’s where those bravest before me fought for their right to love their own (or a similar) sex/gender freely so needless to say labels served to provide those under the lgbt umbrella with national social recognition and solidarity as a community. But culturally we are seeing a shift with the younger generation that seems to embrace love freely (which is what the community initially fought for) and eschews labels for this very reason. It’s still dangerous to be out and openly dating your partner in many places but there are also some very welcoming and amazing places to be out and proud and I’ve noticed that more and more young people are coming out now than ever before. Who are we to judge them or assume there is an underlying misogynistic force at play because they eschew the traditional labels? Don’t get me wrong, I’m a traditional labels type of person but I’m also a product of my generation. Can we also chalk it up to that and just let people (mainly the younger generation) identify as they see fit (fluid and all?).
I don’t know about this situation in Elliot Page’s circumstance because obviously I have no right to speak for any individual. However, I can speak for myself and after I came out there was a small bit of time where I questioned whether I was non-binary or not, and I realized that it wasn’t that I was non-binary or felt like a man internally, I just literally wasn’t that comfortable with my body. I am bigger and didn’t like that. I wanted to be more muscular, so I started working out and wearing male clothes and I feel a lot better. I’ve wanted that ever since I was a kid and begged my mom not to make me wear a dress on Easter. I like more traditionally male things like shooting guns, working with my hands, and I want to work on cars or do carpentry. It doesn’t mean that I am a dude. My point being, I never wanted to be a man. I wanted to be a masculine woman and I was denied that in my childhood. I feel like for a lot of lesbians that is what is going on and they might confuse it with other things. With my trans friends that I have talked to, they ALWAYS knew they were the wrong gender. They thought from a young age that they were in the wrong body and I never experienced that.
I'm sixty-six years old. I'm autistic, I'm a transwoman (autocorrect offers: "townswoman," "tradeswoman." I love it...) If I could have been anything else other than trans, I would have. I'm okay with it now, it's not something I chose, it is just something that's been true about me since I could speak and found out that other people thought I was not a girl. I support a person's right to decide for themselves, as an adult or as a younger person with sufficient assessment, therapy, and support, that they can't identify as their biological gender. I found out about Elliot's situation in a support group for gender-variant autistic people that I attend on Tuesday evenings, and I was speechless and sad. I will get over it. But I can't help but hope that Elliot is doing the right thing for themselves and are not one of those who will regret any steps they take to physically transition.
seems to me that in this day and age the more extreme a persons circumstances the more sympathetic they are - they get exponentially greater "victim" points for being trans than if they are "just gay".
So there is a clamoring run for personal attention and sympathy - "the struggles" imho are often exaggerated. Fact is that a very low percentage of the general population cares one way or the other about someones sexual proclivities - people only seem to care when it is publicly flaunted and imposed upon young school children as part of a woke curricula.
How do I start this controversial response?
Point 1) Elliot came out as a lesbian a few years ago and that was the last time he/they talked about being a lesbian... the "L" in LGBT is silent and that was not displayed anymore loudly than Elliot saying Queer every two sentences but never saying lesbian. You did not lose that lesbian when Elliot came out, he/they left lesbians along time ago.
Point 2) Elliot did NOT come out as a trans man, Elliot came out as transgender and Queer. His/their pronouns are he/they... which is confusing to me because most trans guys use he/him/his pronouns and Non-Binary use they/them/their.... and he never came out as a trans man so I am guessing he is non-binary, TBH it is the use of "Queer" that has me thinking non-binary. I rarely see trans women and trans men use the word Queer as an identifier. They might say "Queer Community" but rarely call themselves Queer.
NOW for the controversial point... Trigger Warning.
Point 3) After reading every Non Binary story I can find, watching hours of people explaining what non-binary is on video, reading articles on non binary people and books... I came to a conclusion. A Cis Gay man like myself and a cis lesbian like Arielle have more communality with a Non-Binary person than a transsexual does... Non Binary is Cis NOT Trans gender. Normally in situations like this I will say "It isn't hurting anyone so let them identify as they want."... but it has started to hurt people. It is hurting homosexuals, and women. Both have been redefined to fit a dogma. We have rights at stake and quite franky we do not wish to gamble with our rights and our safety. The LGBT has virtually NO lesbian representation in the community, the L is silent. The lesbian community has been devastated and no one but lesbians cares... and now after losing their spaces... they are losing lesbian representation and lesbians.
Gays and lesbians should be able to talk about these things openly, especially an issue surrounding NB... it is our lane because NB is GNC Cis people claiming trans gender, I can't lie about it anymore, so I can humor someone and avoid confrontation.
Love you Arielle! You said what I think. Ellen Page is a woman and she is only a woman-hater because she has been consuming too much liberal gender theory.
We need to protect lesbians.
Lesbians are one of the four pillars in the LGBT community. If this pillar falls, the LGBT home will not be the same.
I just think that if I were growing up today all my teachers and others in my life would push me to id as trans. As a kid I kept saying "I wish I were a boy" because I wanted to play boy games and play with my brother and his friends. Thank God it was ok back then to just be "a tomboy." If someone is truly trans then I support them getting whatever medical help they need, but these young girls are being put on hormones and stuff that will change their bodies forever and maybe shorten their lives. Like you say, their brains are not mature enough to understand all the ins and outs of these decisions.