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I have a question why do people think nonbinary and trans are their separate genders when I thought ( maybe I'm wrong ) trans was simply someone transitioning from one mtf/ FTM ( male to female/female to male ) and nonbinary is someone who feels their both female and male or they feel there are neither. so if you draw a picture of it would it be the same binary system trans people simply switching from one to other while nonbinary would be in the center, male on one end ., female on other. IDK maybe I'm crazy

dassgooodyaaaa 2 Apr 19
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0

Agreed. Most intersectional feminists and leftists would agree with you on that point (although would point out that nonbinary is a little more complex and trans can refer to non binary people.

1

I really am not able to keep up with all these nuanced gender definitions. A person is a person no matter how they feel about themselves or imagine themselves to be. I am an old (77 yrs) white male who is mildly autistic and has difficulty reading people and understanding social norms. In no way do I wish to be recognized or demand respect for my unique situation. Every person is unique. There never has been or will be another person just like you. As painful and uncomfortable as everyone's uniqueness can be at times it is part of what builds us and gives us an understanding of the universe that no one else has. So no matter what you identify yourself to be I will be happy to sit down with you over a cup of coffee and a chat.

Pand0ro Level 7 Apr 23, 2020
0

What we can say for all of the pablum below is just who the F cares.....Before Woodstock no one cared and we have been on a long downhill Marxist slide since then. Norms are folkways and ingrained cultural habits, characteristics, beliefs and social systems that have been in place for many years for the MAJORITY of a given population cohort. People that want to be outside the norms must pay the consequences of their rebellion. This is basic culture and society. Americans that wanted to be outside the norms historically went West young man as the saying goes or North. There is still land to make this possible as all freedom is tied to land anyway, all else is illusion. Worldwide, why do you think that wealthy that want to reside on large tracks of secluded land including our founding fathers do or did so. There are no rights or privilege for sex, race or anything else that someone did not fight and die and work for. (And I don't mean activism) If you hand people rights on a silver platter they will not appreciate it and only waste it away to nothing and in the end it proves nothing.

2

I think they are saying that there are others that are not man or woman.

6

If I had a dollar for every gender, I’d have two bucks and a bunch of counterfeits...

2peros Level 8 Apr 19, 2020
0

Ok, lets dig into this. There are actually several ways this is viewed depending on which part of the transgender community you ask.

So let us start with a very basic setup.

First step is Sex:

Now there is some debate on sex. I have heard of two prime camps, and a third that may eventually be where we are headed.

  1. Biological sex is a social construct
    this one holds that male and female is made up and honestly confuses the hell out of me.
  2. Biological sex is bimodal
    this one is what we are taught in biology dealing with the 23rd chromosome pair and while focusing on male-female includes intersex
  3. Biological sex is bimodal with an expanded intersex envelope
    this is the second but accounts for genetic findings as we progress forward. In short we could eventually come to classify transgender individuals as intersex due to genetic/epigenetic markers

Second step is gender:

Now this is where it gets really heated for people in the transgender community. I will again list 3 approaches to include Psychology's currently held definition. I will not include the 4th which discounts transgender individuals entirely as I think there is enough evidence to disprove it.

  1. Gender is a complete social construct
    In this gender is what you make it so arguing over gender is pointless everyone is whatever they say they are
  2. Psychology's Current Definition
    the socially influenced characteristics by which people define boy, girl, man and woman.
  3. Gender is linked to biological sex
    In this sex characteristics, both primary and secondary, are a foundation for our social construction of what constitutes a man or woman, but they are not paramount. In other words, sex itself does not solely denote gender.

Third step Gender Expression

So this is what is part of the argument in gender. I think it could also be causing all the confusion on how gender works. I will go with the 2 factions I have seen in this part.

  1. Gender Expression is your gender
    In this if you do not conform to societal norms for your sex then you are transgender.
  2. Gender Expression is unconnected to gender/sex
    In this you may express anywhere on a spectrum from masculine to feminine with androgyny in the middle. Gender expression does not affect Gender.

Conclusion

From the Psychology field as I understand it the idea is to support and help the individual figure this out for themselves. At the same time you must try to ensure any issues that could be causing confusion are resolved. This means therapy that checks for possible underlying conditions and to treat any problems so that should the individual transition they will be stable and happy with their decisions.

As to transgender and non-binary here are what I think the confusion is for you.

Transgender is being used to describe all transgender people to remove previous terminology. Below I will list older terminology that some consider problematic or phobic.
Trans-sexual: This is what you are thinking of as transgender. These are trans individuals who want to be the opposite sex which equates to their gender.
Trans-vestite: This is a person who enjoys dressing in the other genders clothing but has no desire to transition. Generally it was associated with a sexual fetish.
Trans-partial: Do not desire to fully transition. I will coin this term, thought someone else may already have, as it actually refers to many other terms. A lot of those terms are very derogatory such as "Chicks with D***s".
Non-Binary: While recently it has become more of it's own term it is generally lumped under transgender.
Other: This is simply a placeholder for all other terms people are using under the transgender umbrella.

Non-Binary is not relating to either sex. Just like transgender I believe we will see divisions in this community on what it means. I will list two possibilities below
Non-Binary sex: Usually has some form of dysphoria.
Non-Binary other: Usually has more to do with expression or association with a gender.

disclaimer

I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist at this time. I am simply a transgender individual who has done extensive information gathering about this topic. This is not research quality material and should not be used as the end all be all of the issue. Hopefully this will help explain how crazy this topic is in the LGBTQ+ community and shows that there is no current consensus. Actual research still needs to be done across multiple scientific fields to prove or disprove all listed ideas.

I personally believe sex follows the 3rd option. I believe gender is based on the 3rd option. I believe that gender expression has nothing to do with gender. As a transsexual I believe some form of transition is necessary.

This is a great breakdown. Where do gender roles fit into this tho? Sometimes I hear gender being described as a checklist like “I played with boys toys, liked wrestling, didn’t like pink” growing up vs I innately felt like I belonged with boys and thus liked things that were signifiers of boyhood. In the former case that sounds more like gender role discomfort vs being transgender. I guess it kinda falls into gender expression but roles also seem to encompass more than just the way you present yourself.

@Treesareawesom Alright, so the checklist you are describing is what psychology calls Gender Essentialism. Every child goes through this phase where they associate specific things as inherently for boys or girls. Studies have been done on this and children will do this naturally. It can be influenced by adults reinforcing what is considered for boys or for girls. As children get older and reach adolescence/young adulthood, they tend to realize that these are not absolutes. This means that most boys follow a certain roles/likes and most girls follow certain roles/likes. This is an area of great variance though and often is effected by biology as well.

I would agree with your assessment that basing off essentialism is not a solid signifier of being transgender. You could just be someone who does not conform to gender norms. This is why the original basis of being transgender was conditional on Gender Dysphoria. I'm not sure where we stand right now on being able to solidly aid people as we seem to be broadening the definition of transgender to the point that everyone can be labeled transgender.

1

Lets just cut to the chase and call it what it is...ie. deviance When you want to be or are outside the norm you should not expect any special privilege. That is one reason the left cuts loose with the white privilege BS is because they know they are asking for special sexual privilege so they try their classic reversal psychology. Some of us are creative and individualistic and we do not get any special privilege and either should any person get sexual privilege. They lie and say they are born that way, but most are not. IT is the sick privilege of wealthy societies that are producing this as they live in total fantasy worlds and refuse to accept reality no matter what the social and cultural harm which past civilizations prove is great. In fact the far high left wants them to produce this harm. Real True Classic Useful Idiots in Marxist theory.

Do you consider yourself within the norm on everything you are? Not that we should pitch out all norms, but to say anyone outside the norm is a deviant is extreme. Also what is the norm? Are you talking biological norm, racial norm, economic norm, sexual norm? You say most lie and say they are born that way, but that means some aren't lying. What of those that aren't lying, and don't want special privilege, they just want to be accepted. Is there no middle ground to find a solution that doesn't hurt society or the individual?

3

As near as I can tell there is male, female, and fubar. While it's possible to quibble over normative gender expectations within given cultures, and it's possible within cultures to individually deviate from behavioral expectations, mostly humans can be discerned as either male or female, or abnormal.

govols Level 8 Apr 19, 2020
0

Transgender means "denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex." That gender could be on the binary or nonbinary. Moreover, a person who is transgender may or may not want being transgender to be part of their identity--they might just want to be accepted as they see themselves. Also, an intersex person may or may not be any of the former.

"they might just want to be accepted as they see themselves."
That's great and all, but I also want people to accept that I am not comfortable with trans women who have penises or even with trans women who transitioned after puberty in female only spaces (with rare exceptions). Why do I have to give up my right as a woman but especially as a woman who has been sexually abused, assaulted and molested as a by men, to female only spaces that provide a feeling of safety in order to validate someone elses feelings of "just wanting to be accepted as they see themselves"? I'm not giving up our safe spaces to make someone feel less dysphoric at the expense of triggering my PTSD... However I am all for creating Trans only safe spaces.

2

Hello. I would've thought the binary choice between male and female matters a lot to trans people. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother going through all the treatment, including surgical operations, in order to change their gender.

Naomi Level 8 Apr 19, 2020
1

I think the key to understanding this is to understand the language itself. For me, I am familiar with cis and trans in relation to chemistry. In chemistry cis refers to molecular bonds which are on similar sides/in the same direction, and trans means that they are on opposite sides/ pointing in opposite directions. Most likely this is where cis started meaning gender aligns with sex, and trans started meaning gender not being aligned with sex. While I personally believe that being transgender and being gender queer or gender non-binary are two different things entirely, if one is to look at gender from purely the perspective of: Does a person's gender align with that of their sex, then by those definitions anyone who answers no (transgender, gender queer, gender non-binary etc...) falls under the umbrella term of transgender. While not used nearly as commonly these day, the word transexual does specifically refer to a person undergoing mtf/ftm medical transition relating to hormones and surgery.

4

Only someone with serious mental health issues would believe that biological sex can be changed.

There are more than 6000 physiological differences between a man and woman. Surgical mutation and chemical castration only inflicts irreversible wounds. But Nothing is changed.

Lt-JW Level 8 Apr 19, 2020

I'm not sure I would agree that they have "Serious mental health issues." It's usually a simple factor of misinformation/improper education. Many people who they themselves are uninterested in transitioning, and are in fact cisgender, perpetuate the false notion that a person's base sex can be altered.

What of trans people who realize biological sex can't be changed but do what they can to adapt as closely as possible? Do you think all trans individuals don't realize this? Is it not possible that the very reason trans people have mental health issues is the impossibility of a genetic sex change? Do you think there is no possibility something in a trans persons genetic makeup could be at fault?

I will agree surgery is not the perfect option I would choose, but I know that the mental anguish is real no matter how hard you try to get rid of it. A trans person can bury it as deep as they want, but it will eat away at them.

I wish I could invent a way to explain it. Most older trans people spent decades seeing themselves as one or all of the following, crazy/perverted/deviant/freak. Many tried very hard to align with their sex, not understanding why they felt wrong. Many agree that all those differences exist. What sucks is their option is live with hating their body or as you so kindly put it use chemical castration and irreversible wounds to find a semblance of peace and acceptance for themselves.

So on one hand I agree if someone believes transition changes their 23rd chromosome, cause lets be honest that is what you mean, they probably have a serious mental health issue. However, for those that understand biology, again specifically the 23rd chromosome, can't be changed it isn't nothing to transition.

@KariPanda

If a crazy person goes to doctor and says I think I'm a fish born into human body wrongly, he gets medicated and sectioned to deal with his mental health issues. But surgery will never ever change him to a fish. He will drown when dropped in the sea, rules of biology won't have any sympathy for his crazy feelings.

@Lt-JW I hope you read this to the end. I know it's a lot and maybe it won't change anything, but I hope you will consider it.

You are taking that to an extreme. Your equivalency is faulty. In your example there is literally no possible way for the brain structure and chemistry to support this persons belief. Not only that, but you are stepping outside the rational of being human. You are also equating the surgery to a perfect natural fix.

So let's look at the science. There is some biological evidence that trans people may have biological brain similarities to the opposite sex. There is some evidence that their brains processes more closely resemble those of the opposite sex. Study needs to be done to understand what could be causing this to determine if this is a biological/epigenetic variation. There is also some evidence that it may be a developmental misfire in utero. There is also evidence that some people who think they are trans are actually experiencing other mental health issues that present as being trans.

This is why a trans person should be seeing a therapist and be checking for any other mental health issues. It is to insure that some other issue (Be it trauma, schizophrenia, DID or any other illness) is not the root of the problem. Transition is the final choice after a proper evaluation because of a perfect solution.

Now let's compare that to the fish idea. There is no evidence that this is even remotely possible. Brain structure and processes do not support this, there is no genetic variation that shows evidence of this. They should definitely be seeing a therapist and getting treatment.

Now here is the crux if a trans person acknowledges that surgery does not make them the opposite sex simply gives them a body closer inline to the opposite sex. They accept they could be wrong but that science is showing increasing evidence to support that their brain may align more with the opposite sex. They accept that they need to see a therapist to check for mental health issues. What do they do?

Your answer seems to be suck it up and live with it. What are the options here? Go to a mental asylum directly to a mental asylum do not pass go? Try to accept being the sex you were born as? Work with a therapist or worse a conversion therapist? Do nothing?

Lets answer each of those. An Asylum, where you could be exposed to individuals with much more severe and violent conditions, and you have no freedom. Outcome in that one seems pretty shitty. Accept the sex you were born as, you honestly think most trans people haven't tried this? Work with a therapist, well most already do this one. Work with a conversion therapist, the suicide rate caused by this is near 50%, as I understand it, due to it is more of a conditioned torture. Do nothing, this one is what causes most trans people to kill themselves or transition later in life.

Transition is not and was never meant to be the perfect solution. A perfect solution would be a genetic alteration to make trans individuals the biological sex they wish to be. That is well outside our current scientific ability. The other option would be a way to rework the brain chemistry and structure. Again this is well outside our current scientific ability. Surgical transition is designed to be last resort and to attempt to align the individual more closely to the sex presentation of their gender.

This choice is a hard choice and since it's not perfect it has varying success. Until we have a perfect solution trans people would like an option besides suffering.

Not all trans people think you can be whatever you want or that biology doesn't matter. You seem to think all trans people are delusional and out of touch with reality. Sadly, I'm not sure you can understand how much most trans individuals struggle with this problem. How most trans individuals wish they could fix either their sex or mental dissonance. It is a terrible balancing act of finding how to be comfortable with this problem. No one solution will work for all trans people currently. So is it a mental health disorder, or is it a genetic anomaly? I don't know, and neither does science currently. Hopefully science will figure this out so trans people get a more perfect solution.

Until then, maybe a little compassion with proper therapy and transition if necessary is a good place holder. Many trans people just want to be left alone to live there life and to be treated the way they treat others. Many also try to respect others discomfort with how they are and make concessions. Many empathize with the concerns of non-trans individuals.

Maybe that helps explain it, maybe it doesn't. I just hope you listen and really think about this. Don't just reduce people to being crazy, or attribute delusion to a rational acceptance of realities limitations.

@KariPanda

Crazy people shouldn't be mutilated to feel better. They just need therapy

@Lt-JW Ok, we will see if science proves you right or wrong eventually.

@KariPanda

Science is already clear about it. But no amount of science would ever be convincing enough for crazy people. Galileo did the science work hundreds of years ago, still we have stupid loonies believing in flat earth.

@Lt-JW

Science is not clear on this.

We can't even fully understand the biological influences of each gene on a chromosome let alone all the genes in our genetic code. Believing we already know all there is to know is exactly what Galileo was disproving. Science is the continued evolution of what we understand to be true and while sex has a generally bi-modal presentation it is not 100% infallible.

Scientists and people of his time called Galileo crazy. So using your rational, science had done the work on flat earth hundreds of years before Galileo and no science could have ever proved him right. Can you see how illogical that is?

In science you take all possibilities and test them till you prove or disprove all of them. Sometimes this only leaves you with more questions, and you move on to prove or disprove those.

Do you really not understand that biology could possibly cross a wire and create a disconnect between biological sex and a biological mental state?
Do you not understand that all humans start with a female physical biology that only changes based on androgen activation?
Do you not understand how scientific advancement works?
Do you not understand that science has proved itself wrong on multiple occasions?

To completely ignore science is crazy, but so is complete psychophantic adherence to science. Science requires us to question it and either prove or disprove it. Which is what scientists are doing and it is showing cursory evidence that transgender people are not just crazy.

This does not mean all transgender people are sane, or insane. It merely indicates that there are more causes than just mental illness.

@KariPanda

What did you say your degree was?

@Lt-JW
Brilliant response.

I do not have a current degree, take that as your confirmation you can ignore everything I said, as I know you will. A degree is not necessary to think critically, nor is it an indication that you aren't closed minded. I try to research all sides and I do try to listen to experts in fields associated with my research. I also try to look at experts with differing opinions. So I admit everything I believe could be proven wrong, however all I hear from you is an inability to admit you could be wrong. Instead of backing it up you resort to taunting and belittling opposing views. That is at it's core anti-scientific and at best merely turning a blind eye to opposing ideas.

So what is your degree? And does flaunting it make you a better person? Does everyone with your degree agree with you?

I was hoping maybe I might get a thoughtful response, unfortunately all I got was dogmatic psycophantic drivel just like I get from the LGBTQ+ community that views me as transphobic. Congratulations you are a mirror of what you hate. God Bless, or whatever you believe in.

@KariPanda

I would have prescribed you something to help your symptoms, but off the top of my head there's no medication for verbal diarrhoea.

@Lt-JW

Truly professional.

Can't even be decent enough to answer any questions yourself.

@KariPanda Are you saying that the feeling of being seen as different or a freak is unique to trans people? Because I can guarantee you it is not. And what about the feeling of biological women who have been the victims of abuse by men? You think its right for you to invalidate our feelings, concerns and fears to validate your own feelings of being born the wrong ? Is it more important that I allow you in my space because to not allow you will trigger your dysphoria even though in doing so you will trigger my PTSD? Since you and many other trans folk acknowledge that chromosomes can't be changed (otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion), why can't you advocate for trans only safe spaces instead of trying to force biological women to accept biological men in their safe spaces? Women have had to face the threat of men our entire history of existence and many of us still face this threat. By allowing trans women into our spaces we are opening up the door for predators pretending to be trans to easily target us. There is a reason why mothers take their little boys into the womens restrooms rather than allowing their fathers to take them into the mens.

@Lilu No, absolutely not, I think it is quite common for many people to feel like a freak. I respect those feelings and while it sucks I try to be understanding. Actually I do not try to invalidate natal women's feelings. As to trans women being in women's spaces, this has been happening for a long time the only difference now is that it has been made an issue. It is why passing was so critical. Most of us don't want to make others uncomfortable. I honestly don't care if it is a trans safe space or a women's safe space if everyone is okay with it. Again the reason it used to be required to "pass" was a concession to prevent predatory behavior by cis men.

I would like to point out that transwomen have faced the threat of men for the entirety of our history as well. In fact a larger portion of men will hurt or kill transwomen out of insecurity then men who will intentionally rape or victimize women. Both are terrible and shouldn't happen, but I do not believe in focusing on only one of these issues.

As to why mothers take their little boys into womens restrooms it has more to do with the mother being the primary care giver. There are lots of Fathers out there that take their little boys to the mens room. Trying to imply otherwise is simply not true.

I honestly think you have me confused with an extreme Trans activist, which I very much am not. I think we need a good dialogue to find a reasonable solution for all of us. Just my thoughts, sorry if you felt I was advocating for a complete invasion of womens spaces.

@KariPanda The problem still remains that regardless of whether or not trans women who are passing use our bathrooms without issue, we are now under threat from predatory men who are going to have a free pass to enter women's bathrooms and that is a result of all this trans activism. If trans women really care about biological women as much as they care about themselves why aren't we hearing more from trans women about protecting female spaces from predatory men? Instead were hearing that were bigots if we don't allow men in our spaces and were bigots if we don't have sex with people we don't want to have sex with.

If a trans women has gone through the hormone and plastic surgery procedures necessary to pass as female and I can't tell the difference because they're no bigger or stronger than the average female, then I don't have an issue with sharing our spaces because they've made the commitment and are not physically threatening to us anymore. But now that this IS an issue, how would we determine what is passing and what isn't so that biological women can feel safe sharing their spaces with trans women?

Biological women have been victimized, subjugated, raped and murdered, molested, sexually abused, mentally abused, gas lighted for thousands of years because of our genitalia and our ability to bring life into this world which some (mainly religious men with power) found threatening and it is still happening in many places around the world today. But I'd be very interested to see the study or stats that you are using to imply that the number of trans women suffering at the hands of men is higher than that of biological women.

Are you a mother? Have you ever raised children? Have you been part of female groups who raise children together and discuss issues and concerns around raising children? I was raised to be a "domesticated wife" (although I rebelled against my families expectations once I was old enough to leave home) so I know all about it, and I know for a fact that mothers will not allow their young sons to enter a male bathroom alone because of the possibility of encountering a predatory male, which is just 1 of many reasons but is the main concern. I shouldn't have said "with their father" I actually meant to say alone.

Why should trans womens issues be discussed alongside biological womens issues? One is a biological female and the other is a biological male with dysphoria... Why is it ok to talk about black lives separate to everyone elses lives but its not ok to talk about biological womens rights separate to trans womens rights? I agree that both need to be discussed and addressed but they are different issues. One has issues because they were born female the other has issues because they were born male but want to be female.

@Lilu You bring up a lot of points I do worry about, and sadly the activists supported by the media deem any trans woman that voices those same concerns, a transphobe/mysoginist bigot. We aren't even safe in our own community to advocate natal womens concerns because we are basically outed if we do. Most of us have been hiding our whole life so we just keep hiding because we know how to do that.

It's not right or fair but it is a reality.

As to the kids, your clarification now makes complete sense. I would never want any kid to go to the restroom alone. That is a terrible concern.

It's discussion like this that needs to happen because both sides are being hurt and unfortunately the advocate trans faction just seems to want to ignore natal womens fears and concerns. I truly am sorry that so many women feel unheard and threatened.

I wish I could have been a mother, but you are right that I don't know all the worries. I hope discussions like this can help us all find a more satisfactory solution as I am now vulnerable to predatory men.

As to statistics I need to do more research as it is a very complex issue and maybe I am wrong.

I also agree, both issues need discussing without all the name calling and hatred.

Thank you for a great response every bit of information I can learn helps even if I don't always want to hear it.

@KariPanda I'm glad we've been able to have this discussion. Believe it or not I've learnt quite a bit from speaking to you about the troubles we both face as well. I'm sorry that you are also being affected by all this trans activism stuff and it boggles my mind why your own community would treat you like that. Then again people from my community treat me the same way. So, I guess we actually have more in common than we have differences. If there is a way that biological women and trans women can share spaces without resulting in the other feeling unsafe, I'm all for it.

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