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A Biblical Response to Gay Marriage -- Although I have already contributed this item to the biblical Christianity group in the past, I thought the The Culture War group might also profit from a post I wrote on my blog back in 2015, about a month after the U.S. Supreme Court legalized gay marriage throughout the country. The post is entitled "Carey Nieuwhof Offers Some Bad Advice to American Pastors Regarding Same Sex Marriage," and it offers a response to his bad advice. He does offer a good example, however, of how many professing "Evangelical" Christians misunderstand or distort the Bible's teaching on how we should handle the matter. I hope this may engender some thoughtful discussion. It is also my hope that those who read this post, even if not Christians themselves, will at least better understand how we see the issue. I welcome input. What do you think?

[reformedbaptistblog.com]

P.S. I repeatedly attempted to contact Carey and engage with him personally, but I never received a response to my emails via his website.

KeithThroop 9 July 27
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@iThink I think I can understand why you didn't pick up on the defense of my position that was contained in the article I linked. I titled the post here as "A Biblical Response to Gay Marriage," but what I was linking to was really a response to another pastor who was criticizing the typical conservative, Christian response to gay marriage. Thus there wasn't really a complete biblical defense of our position, since it was not necessary in that context. But there certainly was a partial biblical defense of it, and it was enough to make the point. For example, I cited at least three clear passages regarding this matter (two at some length, and one via a link that allowed the reading of the text when hovering over it). These three passages alone, taken in the larger context of the post -- not to mention the larger context of the Bible -- were sufficient to demonstrate that a proper understanding of the Bible would lead to the prohibition of gay marriage. Here I will give you all three passages again for your convenience. I will do so in biblical order rather than the order they appeared in the article, but that shouldn't make a difference.

First, when answering a question about divorce and reminding His detractors of what they all would have accepted as the foundational text on marriage, Jesus assumed what they all would have assumed, namely that God created mankind male and female with the intention that a man and a woman would marry:

NKJ Matthew 19:3-6 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" 4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' [Gen. 1:27] ] 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'"? [Gen. 2:24] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

Now, the reference to a man and a woman becoming "one flesh" may include more than simply their physical union through intercourse, but it certainly doesn't include any less, and this is intended by the Creator as one important aspect of marital union. In the context of Genesis, of course, it also went along with the idea that this was how the earth would be populated. This is the persistent view of marriage throughout the Bible. Nowhere does it even contemplate the possibility that two men or two women would marry, an idea which runs against God's purpose in creating mankind male and female in the first place. Thus the apostle Paul had the purpose of God in creating mankind male and female in mind when he openly condemned homosexual lust and practice, which brings me to the second passage I cited:

NKJ Romans 1:16-27 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man– and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. (Italics mine.)

Paul's meaning in the first century context would not have been missed. He saw homosexual lust and practice as one of the results of the idolatrous refusal to accept God's created order. But he also clearly identified homosexuality as wicked behavior elsewhere, which brings me to the third passage I cited (via link):

NKJ 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites ....

Now, just so you know, Paul wasn't simply being redundant when he specified both "homosexuals" and "sodomites" in this instance. There were actually two different Greek words that referred to what we would call homosexual behavior, but from two different standpoints. This is why the New King James Version I've cited renders (perhaps a bit clumsily) these Greek words by these two English words. The first Greek word, rendered as "homosexual," is malakós, which was used in such contexts to refer to the passive partner in the homosexual act (here thinking of men, although we have seen that Paul saw female homosexual behavior as wicked also). The second word, rendered as "sodomite," is arsenokoítēs, which in this context would refer to the active male partner in homosexual intercourse. The reason for both words would have been to counter the possible excuse that only one or the other would be seen by him as guilty of wrongdoing.

At any rate, the Bible teaches that God has designed marriage to be between a man and a woman, in which sexual intercourse was properly to take place, and it clearly sees any attempt at the same kind of relationship between two men or two women as wicked. This is also why, by the way, those who try to argue for gay marriage can find no clear acceptance of it anywhere in the Bible.

As for other points you've made, I don't have time to respond right now. I would, however, make one important point in closing. Sometimes people think that the Bible should not be seen as being against something unless one can find a an explicit statement to that effect (as if the Bible should speak of things in precisely the same way and in precisely the same terms as we do thousands of years later). Thus they demand we cite a verse that expressly says something like, "Marriage between two men or two women is forbidden." But such a statement was unnecessary in a context where no one would have dreamed of the possibility of such a thing because they knew the kinds of things I have already pointed out. But this also misses an important point that Christians have long stressed, namely that we accept as authoritative not only what is expressly stated in Scripture but also what may be derived therefrom by means of good and necessary inference.

Anyway, I hope I've made my view more clear for you, and I hope you can see why I felt that the passages I had cited should be sufficient to know why I hold my position, keeping in mind also that the purpose of the article I linked was not to give a complete biblical defense. I see now, though, that I should have titled the opening of the post I made here differently. I'm sorry if it seemed misleading. That was not my intent.

I did not see it as misleading at all. Good and comprehensive response here. I accept your argument as supported by biblical reference.
However, it does not address the matter of "civil law" vs "canon law".
You and I may or may not like it but those two things must necessarily co-exist in that all members of society are able to move about free of mal-treatment against them for their personal choices to enjoin religion or to not.
In fact Marriages administered in churches by ordained ministers are at the same time Civil Ceremonies. Marriage licenses and all.

Civil law MUST administer to all members of the citizenry equally. Otherwise we live in a dictatorship of one stripe or another - Monarchy - Monotheistic (as in Islamic culture) and other forms of governance that can do was their whims dictate whatever they like to whomever they so choose. In other words to live in servitude to the arbitrarily applied whims of man instead of to codified law with its narrow boundaries.

WE MUST not lose sight of the fact - the foundational tenet of a society built on the principles of free and autonomous man it is absolutely necessary that all members of that society - male, female, Black, White, Heterosexual and Homosexual, Pagan and Christian be treated EQUALLY under the law - the law of the land.
Freedom means that all members of such a society are FREE TO CHOOSE as they will the kinds of lifestyles they lead - as long as their "choices" do not infringe on others in any harmful way.
I will accept the argument that in order to be a true and good "Christian" one must accept the teachings of the Christian scriptures as his guide. But that is independent from each mans RIGHTS - CIVIL RIGHTS to receive fair and equal treatment of codified Civil Law - THE US CONSTITUTION.
Men like you and I may not like it or agree to it but equitable application of The Law applies to homosexuals as well as it does to heterosexuals - in our Culture.
Alas not so in the Islamic Culture and we know what they do to homosexuals. We don't want to be like them - do we? No - we don't.

@iThink There are just a couple of points I would make in response to your arguments about "civil law" versus "canon law," as you put it.

First, I think we could agree that there are some things we all would typically view as right and wrong and that should be legislated (which seems to be what you mean by "civil law" ) versus some things that fall inside a more narrow religious scope as belonging only to the proper practice of a particular religion (which seems to be what you mean by "canon law" ). For example, most of us would accept that things like murder or theft should be outlawed under the first and that things like blasphemy or idolatry should be seen as falling under the second. The question is where gay marriage should fit. As I understand it, many, perhaps most, societies have placed homosexuality itself -- never mind gay marriage -- in the first category for millennia. Be that as it may, however, western civilization for centuries has certainly placed it under the first category, at least until recently. But the issue for most Christians I know isn't that homosexuality itself is legal, but that gay marriage has been legalized. Most of us see that as falling under the rubric of what you would call "civil law" because it is not only a moral but a civil matter, as you have pointed out. As a civil matter, the government has to take some stance on it. Up until now that stance followed the obvious notion that, given that only a man and a woman a can have children and are literally made to fit together, it makes no sense to treat male/male and female/female relationships as if they are the same thing. This is my view, and, in the kind of free society you have described, I have as much right to try to have it enacted as civil law as those promoting gay marriage have to try to enact their agenda into law. Well, except that they didn't actually do that. There was no political will to pass such a law by the majority of people, so the Supreme Court took it upon itself to decide the matter for the rest of us (so much for the Constitutional approach you're advocating). At any rate, those who promote gay marriage have ended up winning the issue without winning the votes, but that doesn't mean that I can't be opposed to it.

Second, you speak of ours as a "society built on the principles of free and autonomous man," but that is not actually correct, as I understand it. After all, one of our foundational documents, the Declaration of Independence, states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..." This does not view us as "autonomous man," completely independent of God and able simply to do as we will, but as man dependent upon God as our Creator for the lives we have and for the rights we have. And, like it or not, the God being spoken of there is the God of what is commonly called the "Judeo-Christian" tradition. And one must ask himself why it is that only such a culture that has believed in such a God as this has manged to form the kind of government we so cherish. But to ask the question is to answer it; it is because only this religious tradition contains the bedrock principle that all human beings have been created in the image of God and are therefore equal before God (a seed notion, if you will, that took a bit too long to grow in some respects). This is the kind of God being spoken of by our Founders here in America, a God who created us all and gave us our rights, a God who created us as male and female and designed us in an incredibly obvious way so that we could not possibly miss His intention for us. Again, people may not like this, but it is a part of the warp and woof of our civilization, and the only way around it is to reject the knowledge of this God altogether and to unravel our civilization. As it turns out, that is exactly what is happening.

Now, I don't expect you to completely agree with me on these matters, but I do appreciate the direct, but respectful way you have engaged me. I hope I have responded in kind.

@KeithThroop I think you know that when I speak of free and autonomous men I speaking not to the spiritual side of man but of the secular existence of men.
Church law / Canon Law as the Catholic Church calls has no application on the outside of the body of the church itself. Not to say that civil law is not informed by religious teachings - certainly I would not deny that Christian teaching informed the writers of the Magna Carta, the US Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution itself. No question about that.
But it must be acknowledged that they are two completely separate yet co-existent bodies of law. It must also be noted that while church laws ONLY apply to the congregation of the church it does NOT apply anywhere in general society. There are no pieces of legislation whereby a man can be legally troubled for blasphemy for example. However Civil law can and does overlap insofar as it takes the Civil imprimatur to grant or to give recognition to marriage. A minister or a Bishop or any other church official cannot make a marriage legal without a gov't issued license. In short you can take the religion out of marriage but you can't have a legal marriage without civil authority.
Of course you have a 1st amendment right to let your wishes be known and to lobby for whatever changes you care to make with regard to civil ceremonies - like marriage. You can ask for the moon too. No one can prevent you asking.
But insofar as codified, legislated law/authority goes it absolutely MUST apply equally to every man - churched or unchurched - more to the point of the matter at hand, homosexual or heterosexual.
Like you I find Judicial activism very distasteful. It is worrisome to put it mildly. But we also know that the Supreme Court itself uses "interpretation" of law in making its decisions. I tend to agree with their interpretation of the the issue regarding equal protection under the law as it applies to homosexual persons.
The US Supreme Court has gone through various periods whereby for some years it was more "liberal/less literally constitutional" than I personally would appreciate and it has gone through times when it was majority faithful to the US Constitution as written - literally. Which seems more to my liking.
No doubt it will shift again through time.
I am really not that unpleased about the courts ruling on gay marriage. However there is one thing in particular that I have very strong feelings about and that is Abortion.
I am against abortion with the only exception being the rare incident where a pregnancy must be terminated in order to save a womans life. I know of only one case like that.
It was my sister - the exact date escapes my old brains memory store. But sometime in mid 70s.
My sister was diagnosed with a severe case of ulcerative colitis which had advanced such that she was rushed into surgery for a total colonectemy. Her colon had become abscessed. She happened to be pregnant at the time. Less than 3 months pregnant as I recall. They had to abort the pregnancy before they could begin the surgery - which the pregnancy would NOT have survived the surgery in the first place.
I know there must be other similar cases but they are rare. You and I both know that women are using "abortion rights" as a form of birth control. Makes me sick to think about it.

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Thats a lot of reading to do in order to get to your point about same sex marriage. Still didn't find that info. Why don't you just come right out and tell us why you are not in favor of same sex marriage and then back it up with "Christian Scripture".
I don't believe there is any language in the Bible or other texts where Jesus the Christ nor his apostles say anything at all about same sex marriage. But I am not a scholar of religious scripture - or of anything else really...ha!

Here's my two cents: I don't like it - gay marriage - seems like a perversion of the ceremonious reverence we hold for marriage itself. But that is a religious (Christian as well as other religious belief systems seem to have the same or similar feelings about marriage as a "blessed" or sacred thing) application to the institution of marriage.
This does NOT allow for nor even address the matter of Civil law with regard to marriage. I submit that: A) Civil law is decidedly and necessarily non-religious
and that: B) In Christian teachings there is a clear delineation between that which is "civil law" (That which is Caesars) and that which is Religious Cannon (That which is Gods).
No doubt those two things overlap because of the human need for ceremonious acts in order to "consecrate" a marriage.
On one had the marriage is "blessed" (given the okee dokee) by Gods little workers here on earth and on the other hand a marriage is no so much "blessed" but is permitted and recognized (given the okee dokee) by Civil statute. (That which is Caesars).

IMHO "We the People" (Western Civilization) must accept the fact that there are and always will be a percent of the general population who do NOT or will not enjoin any - ANY religious tradition as a matter of personal autonomy and choice. I believe that personal autonomy and choice is the most important stone in the foundation of the "free world".

Without that nothing but slavery is possible. And as slaves we would either be forbade the practice of religious rituals or we would be forced to participate in a State dictated religious tradition such as Islam itself.

If we are free men then we also MUST be tolerant men else we will not be free for very long.
If we are not tolerant (does not mean we have to like something) of things that do not conform to our own personal beliefs (religion for example) then religious minded men also will NOT be free.
Gay marriage - the idea of it is repulsive to you and to me to a large degree. But Civil Law and Religious Cannon must co-exist for better of for worse (pun intended) and they should overlap as minimally as possible. IMHO.

iThink Level 9 July 27, 2020

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