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At the end of the day, this is what your culture war comes down to.

WilyRickWiles 8 Feb 20
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The Belgian princess is just virtue signalling. Typical of the modern “liberal”. Want to feel good by saying words that mean nothing but don’t want to do or sacrifice anything.

Similar to a religious person saying they will pray for you…

Hanno Level 8 Feb 20, 2022

Which is why she should take Connolly's advice.

2

Historical debt? How clever of you, Wiles, to inject a metaphorical notion--typically used by academics to link one event to another in their expository narratives of history--as a meaningless moral abstraction by which the hands of the evil dead may justly set perpetual criminal guilt and indebtedness upon the innocent shoulders of their living descendants. Not even the concept of original sin in Calvinistic doctrine demands that we be judged for Adam's sin; rather, Adam's sin becomes the precedent ground for our own personal, concrete, and voluntary iniquities, for which we are judged by God without respect to our biblical first parents. Nor does the secular notion of evolution impose moral guilt upon living species who have inherited from their forebears certain physical or social variations that prove advantageous in the struggle for survival. Successful species are not required to pay for the death and misery that nature has demanded to craft their success as species in the current epoch of natural history. And not even the quote from the Scottish-Irish socialist supports your concept, so he even recognized the tricky problems implicit in "racial" guilt. So, nonsense, Rick. As Mark Twain noted, “There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.” If we were to take your notion of "historical debt" seriously, we would never be able to discover the mists of prehistory those groups who should justly be made whole of the unjust predations of other human beings, so that their descendants today, though they would possess no knowledge of such crimes, might be held accountable and penalized for all eternity.

Guilt is a human idea, not a biological one. It is also a legal concept. But holding people guilty for crimes that they did not commit is the essence of injustice. If you want guilt to pass through seaman and egg from one generation to another, then you have committed yourself to a fanciful moral ontology, one that embraces "blood guilt" as its most reasonable expression. But the satisfaction of such tribal notions, as we see vendettas common in the Mideast, is family vengeance until the opposing families reconcile in some way or one family renders the other incapable of extracting vengeance. But this notion is visceral, not abstract. The hatred is concrete, not a theoretical concept. I would suggest that what you are really are talking about is a primitive rationale for transferring resources from one group to another group by imposing a phony moral debt that demands more than simply ending injustices. It demands perpetual punishment and servitude. Of course, this idea would entice many who hold grudges, but it is still simply nonsense.

givpd Level 6 Feb 20, 2022

Rick, your presupposition is so horribly and demonstrably flawed!

In assuming "ownership", you limit your timescales, you limit your sections or regions of the world, and you limit the historical context to fit into your narrative

Example: The Sioux were a confederation of powerful Algonquin tribes from the Great Lakes region that did not exist in western North America before the 1600s. During the late 1600s and into the mid-1700s, the Sioux forcefully moved westward, taking land and killing enemies until they had conquered an area larger than Texas. I have more examples of the Blackfoot Confederacy conquering and mercilessly enslaving/killing the Cree and Dene they encountered over 800 years ago.

Do we go back in time and kick the Sioux back to Ohio and Michigan? Do we make them compensate the historical "owners" like the Nez Perce?

Using your logic, when do the Muslims give back Constantinople?

@givpd I think the quote is pretty clear. One must claim both sides of the historical ledger or neither.

@Sensrhim4hizvewz Like I said below, who is claiming the ancient grievances you want to pivot to?

@WilyRickWiles

Those who spend their days looking back will never be able to advance in the present. Trying to go back in time to fix a demented Belgian ruler's monstrosities is ludicrous.

Applying modern-day knowledge and morals to far past historical events in order to render justice is about as useless and wasteful a use of headspace as I can think of.

@Sensrhim4hizvewz Maybe they should abdicate, then, or better yet abolish the monarchy and return its wealth to the people? Their former colonial subjects have legitimate grievances and a right to pursue remediation.

@WilyRickWiles

I think all monarchies should be abolished. Meritocracy brother!

@WilyRickWiles The quote is clear, but you apparently don't understand it. And you should learn to answer arguments. Dismissing them with a wave of your hand is not terribly impressive. Again, you wish to hold guilty of crimes by some notion of blood guilt. You don't defend that. You simply assume that such a moral proposition makes sense. Even Connolly's quote rejects your assumption. Ending injustice is one thing. Holding the innocent descendants of the perpetrators of that injustice is simply irrational vengeance without moral justification. Again, vengeance is popular, and the notion of blood guilt gives it a rationale, irrational though it might be. You have still to offer a rational justification for your belief.

@givpd I don't have to answer arguments when y'all disregard mine, which again is no more than the words of the quote. You're trying to put words in my mouth.

1

Should All Italians or Greeks apologise for Greek culture, and Italians for perceived Romans atrocities?

angelo Level 8 Feb 20, 2022

Who is still claiming such grievances?

@WilyRickWiles
It is the Greek culture that brought us democracy and philosophy.
The very things that gave the west the advantage over the world it colonised.

The Roman Empire set the basis for the great European states that followed.

Where do you ask that China and Turkey need to apologise for the colonisation of south Eastern Asia and Eastern Europe respectively?

@Hanno Are you talking to me? Not sure how that follows from my response.

@WilyRickWiles
What I am trying to say is that colonialism that everyone is so upset about came from the advantages that the Etruscan, Greek and Roman empires laid.

So the Greeks and Italians have to apologise according to the grievance industry.

The fact that all peoples except the San were colonials completely lost on them.

@Hanno I think my point stands.

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