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Things will be heating up in Oregon over this for sure. Using state police to track down senators to force them to 'go to work!'

While I support the states' rights to legislate such issues as cap and trade, I disagree with using state police to force then to appear for a vote on such legislation. That seems to me a violation of their rights. Is what they're doing illegal? If so, arrest them and go about possibly replacing them thru an existing process. They are servants, not slaves.

ObiRonMoldy 7 June 24
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The whole purpose of requiring a quorum is that not just a few may rule. The purpose is to allow a walk out in extreme circumstances.
The proposed cap and fine legislation will effect all of the state rural, on the east of the state, and in the south of the state disproportionately from Portland, Eugene or Salem.
The constituents from the rural, east and southern Oregon are telling their representative “you have the means to represent our wishes via denial of a quorum”.
They are observing the will of their constituents.
They are representing them.
That’s their job.

@ObiRonMoldy
Taking paths allowed by the system is not exploitation. I don’t call out anyone rich for taking every exemption they can. You and I do. I didn’t forfeit the child tax credit because I thought the government should have more of my money.
The poor collect more than they contribute by “exploiting” the rule that says they can get back far more, exponentially, than they contribute.

What is happening in Oregon is Soviet styled totalitarianism. If you need to used an armed force to round up politicians so you can get a political vote you refused to put as a ballet initiative so the people could vote on it, you are nothing more than a jack boot thug.
Cap and trade should be up to the voters. Not Kate and the democrats. If they refuse to let the citizens vote on an economy destructing regulatory system, all the representatives have left is to stall the vote till the session is over.
This has happened here twice now (I live in Oregon).
Earlier this session the democrats used the “Emergency Clause” which allows them to pass legislation which contradicts the state constitution (not allowing ballet initiative on certain types of legislation) because they knew the ballet initiatives would fail, as they had been voted on last session, and were struck down by the citizen.

If you believe it is ok for politicians to abuse the emergency clause to pass legislation the citizens rejected, them why do we have representative governance in the first place?

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Live by sword, die by the sword.

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It's their civic duty. Not unlike what happens when we shirk jury duty or go AWOL from the military. Happened in Wisconsin in response to Scott Walker's union busting and it has almost happened recently in other states except the lawmakers got out of dodge before threats could be made. And in this case it sounds like there will be many attempts at persuasion before any force is used. (EDIT: Looks like they're already in Idaho, so I'm guessing the Dems will persue a compromise). What's really a dangerous norm-violation is the response by vigilantes.

[en.wikipedia.org] [en.wikipedia.org]

In Oregon, here are the laws governing this process:

From the Oregon constitution: "If a quorum is present, the Senate shall proceed with the transaction of business. When there is no quorum present, a lesser number of members may adjourn from day to day and compel the attendance of absent members."

From ORS 181.050: "The state police, with the approval of the Governor, may be called upon by any other branch or department of the state government to enforce criminal laws or any regulation of such branch or department."

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Political maneuvers of children. All of this stuff has gotten bigger than the process of running the government. And, it's not just the left doing it. It's both sides and the mainstream media branch of the parties. This IS the swamp--the establishment--the deep state. We're paying for it, and it's going to be us that has to fix it eventually.

chuckpo Level 8 June 24, 2019

@ObiRonMoldy, there, that wasn't hard. You just defined the deep state, more or less. The bureaucracy. I'm not sure how that's a conspiracy theory. The bureaucracy serves the government and has grown organically (hopefully) out of control. The politicians are the face of the system, but the Republicans have been naive about the bureaucracy. Maybe the left got lucky, and it just happened. Maybe they saw value in flooding the institutions with their people (Universities). The results are pretty clear. It's all being played out right in front of us. Not rocket science. But, a lot of people hide behind 'conspiracy theories' while they're often the ones decrying some other conspiracy theory. I think they do that as a distraction technique impeding real reform.

@ObiRonMoldy, so that Russian collusion? That was a conspiracy theory, right? All of the political theater around obstructing a non-crime? Over two years? An actual investigation costing millions of dollars, pressuring witnesses and charging for crimes outside the charter? That's all legit, right? What about the mainstream media? What's that about? Is it all really normal and equal, or is there something going on there that greatly benefits one party? Is it honest? Is it manipulative? What is antifa? Is the entire right really alt-right? Is Ben Shapiro alt-right? That whole identity politics thing, what is that? What's its function? Is it a coordinated effort? Is there a 'narrative'? How much of that Kavanaugh thing was legit? Did that feel right to you?

Funny thing about conspiracy theories is how the label invalidates a speaker's ideas. Why the label--one both sides sling around often?

@ObiRonMoldy, sounds like you pick the conspiracy theories you want to believe while implying I'm a conspiracy theorist.in order to manipulate me into silence. Ouch. That's what I'm saying. Is that clear?

@ObiRonMoldy, sounds like I hit it pretty right on, from what you've written here and what I know of you from previous conversations. You pull left, you favor left conspiracy theories, you push on anything that counters those views. You're just not honest about it.

I'm an independent who picked a side that's the most against your side in the culture war. Obviously, I can't just switch to Republicans where I disagree with them. I tend not to endorse that party either. I stand with them because I think they're much more sincere than the left. I'm not talking about politicians who are nearly universally flawed. That's an honest reflection of where I stand. Clear, honest.

NOT talking about a deep state because you're uncomfortable talking about--what is that? You bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not there? That doesn't seem like a very sensible approach to anything. Talking about abortion is so easy it's nearly not worth having the conversation. Everyone knows the players and the arguments from both sides, including statistics to back up their side of it. That's an issue. Fixing abortion, if that could even be done, won't fix the country. We have to talk about those things that are harming the country. Sheesh, if a thief stole your car, but you didn't see him steal it, you pretend there are no thieves and your car wasn't stolen? How does that make sense?

I don't care much about your hurt feelings/my hurt feelings--emotive manipulative crap. You don't want to seem to talk about your conspiracy theories AT ALL, hahaha. THIS is exactly what I was talking about. The label is used to take power--it's manipulative--it's gaslighting. Don't you get this? You push me into conspiracy theorist and deny your own conspiracy theories, I push the label on you--you don't feel that? That tension and dissonance is manipulation. That's what I'm trying to show you. It's not an authentic conversation. It's just spending our time grappling over power. You CLEARLY don't like thinking of your conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories. Why? Because you understand the game that's being played at some level. Let's see if you can be honest. What's your motivation to label me a conspiracy theorist? Look deep. Tell me it's not about power.

After ALL OF THIS NONSENSE, would you still like to talk about how the narrative is being forced down two lanes (my original point)? As you noted, the two-party system is broken. Well, how? What's broken? Where is it broken? It doesn't have to do with gun control or abortion or even immigration or the deficit or foreign affairs--why in the world would we reduce the conversation to those topics when the problem is the broken system? Call it whatever you want, blame whoever you want--doesn't fix a thing, does it?

@ObiRonMoldy, I think there's more going on than polarization. YES, we are polarized. Are we being intentionally polarized? Fair question. Conspiratorial.

I don't doubt we agree on several things.

We NEED to talk about something like 'deep state', because it speaks to the question above and represents either a hyper-partisan influence or an influence of the ruling class that's grown beyond our control. We're supposed to be the ones in charge, remember? Do you feel in charge? I don't. Do you feel your party is in charge? I feel this battle being waged--the left, Trump, and the coward republicans a distant third. To ME, Trump represents my attempt to regain control, which is working up to the point where Trump forgets what got him there. Anyway, this entire culture war is related to this struggle, and the thoughtless hoard cheer their teams on. I don't care to be a thoughtless hoard. I prefer to try to understand what's happening and fix the damned system. I don't think the Democrat politicians could be nearly as effective resisting Trump, if not for a foothold in the bureaucracy. The partisan leaks, the politicization of institutions, the media and the weaponization of the media, coordinated false narratives, strange alliances--it all stinks. I'm not sure there's a head of the snake, but this ideological stampede is nearly undeniable. Anyway, I'd much rather understand it than ignore it. In addition to the things you said above.

@ObiRonMoldy, from my perspective, and probably from my own professional orientation, I'd argue labels are supremely important. Without them, we don't talk about it. That's potentially fatal. I don't need 'deep state' or 'swamp' or the 'establishment' or any particular label, but pick something. In my view, we're talking about this because I insisted on a label--insisted on giving attention to this thing that you call 'the boogeyman'.

Thank you for acknowledging your left lean. I'm also pretty fiscally conservative, but I can even go wonky there. For example, I'm a conservationist, even though I don't buy into climate change alarmism. I'm actually for measured population control. I think we should responsibly reduce our footprint on the Earth by 1/3 to 1/2. That's not going to win me many points with people who want ever-expanding customer pools. I think wanton greed is corrosive and has harmed capitalism with social responsibility. I don't see competition doing anything in the insurance industry, but then I think the idea of mitigating all risk or normal life is a very poor idea. And, it's resulted in monetizing life--a worse idea.

The media may be one of the most dangerous inventions ever created. There's an insentient force you're talking about, where clicks = money, so they sell racism, classism, all of the MOST UGLY things about our world DAILY so they can get richer. Then, there's the hopelessly ideological influence where the media has taken to activism and literally lies to push a narrative, and they do this with impunity. There is NO CHECK on the media. The Government has checks. Trump has checks. There are NO CHECKS on the media--nothing to reign them in and force them to be fair and objective. They're out of control, and people have literally died for false narratives put out by the mainstream media. At least people are a little less trusting of social media--not in all cases. But, most reasonable people. Another problem with the media is they all hover around 2-4 million views out of 327 million people. They don't need a large percentage to be VERY SUCCESSFUL. You can find 2-4 million zealots that want your particular worldview. There is NO MOTIVATION for the mainstream media to ethic up.

You may think we're talking about the issues. I think we're talking about a conspiracy--intentional or not, that's part of the question. You put all of the pieces together (individual discussion points), and you see an uncomfortable fit--even disturbing. It's like a chess board. Look around the board, and you see it's not you in the better position--it's not us poised to threaten the King. Some of that is the weapon of labels like 'conspiracy nut'. Keeps us NOT talking about what could turn out to be most important.

@ObiRonMoldy, interesting in that I think if we kept talking point for point about the ways in which we've lost power, we'd probably circle back around to a conspiracy. I think it would go there because there's no other reasonable place for it to go. Some succinct force herding society to one particular worldview (or worse, power center, gulp). There's too much evidence that SOMETHING is there. IF we came to that point, would you be willing to give it a name?

Terms often fail us. I was just having a conversation where we'd used the word 'system' in so many contexts, the term started to lose meaning. But, we come to a point in conversation where the limitations of our language hinder communication. We also use specific terms for their emotional power. Conspiracy theory is like that. We try to pin the other side with the label and try to avoid being labeled with it at the same time. That's just a psychological manipulation, but it also hinders communication. We have no word for 'conspiracy' that isn't saddled with negative connotation. It's why it is such an effective weapon. So, by all means, feel free to suggest alternative ways to talk about the topic--alternative terms. It's not as easy as it looks. But, the absence of that language necessarily accepts the very imprecision you fear.

@ObiRonMoldy, per corruption = lens. What are you looking at? Corrupted law? Corrupted institution? Corrupted process? Corrupted morally or ethically? Corrupted methods? Corrupted spiritually? Corrupted logic? It gets confusing, but that doesn't mean you don't talk about corruption because it get gets confusing. If you want clarification on one point, ask. I would say all of those examples of corruption exist in government. And, the actors want it to exist. Is that a conspiracy? Yeah, there's an argument there. Do they want it there due to their own self-interest? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean they're not conspiring implicitly or explicitly to corrupt the system for personal gain.

We've talked a LONG TIME in this thread about words and how we use them--what we'll accept from each other, and we've yet to really engage the topic. Go back and read the original post I wrote. All of this because you don't want to talk about the topic because the words aren't good enough? Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense at all. There is a strong case that there is an undercurrent throughout society that is messing up everything. It could literally be ideology, it could be corruption at various levels and for various purposes, but the apparent result is undermining our ability to keep the ruling class in control. If the ruling class is gaining power and we're losing power I don't give a good goddamn what words trigger you or me or anyone else. NOT TALKING about it, or talking about it indirectly while whispering, just increases the likelihood the ruling class will succeed and shut us out of the process.

Seriously, is there a way for you to have THAT conversation? And, if not, why? I hope it's not because you actually understand where the power is and you're shilling for your team in the rivalry. I ask because I think this is a lot of what's going on in the US citizenry. Power and control is at the center of the fight, and while I see that playing out in both sides of the political aisle, I don't see the same dynamic among real people. The way I see it ON AVERAGE is Democrat voters are grasping for power and control and the non-left is ON AVERAGE trying to block the left from getting it. Those two mindsets are very different from each other. Like I said, I chose my side in the culture war, and this is one of the biggest reasons I chose the side I did.

@ObiRonMoldy, I gave that point to you. Conceded it. Suggested coming up with better language? What do you propose? I then asked if we circled back around to a conspiracy would you be able to give it some level of credence? Let's pretend there is a deep state. What would it look like to you?

@ObiRonMoldy, sounds like you're not interested in talking about the same things I'm interested in talking about. It doesn't sound like you're willing to consider that there could be competing coordinated narratives.

@ObiRonMoldy, because you're unwilling to consider the implications of 'the issues'. You're unwilling to even entertain the idea. You're locked and closed. In my view, this sticks you into the leftist cultural narrative. You've chosen your side in the culture war, and that's where the freaky shit you refuse to acknowledge is going on. I can't force you to awaken, so yeah--we've been at this impasse since your first response to my comment.

@ObiRonMoldy, so many words. But, all I really heard was, 'nuh-uh'. Okay.

@ObiRonMoldy, could be, I guess. But, it may be I don't agree with your words. To the left, listen = comply.

@ObiRonMoldy, cool. I'm not replying because you've spent the entire thread saying you won't listen and won't talk about it. You got insulting on your own. I started out trying, and now I'm not. This conversation never started. I mean duh, right?(rhetorical. Please don't answer).

...

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While I completely agree with you, unfortunately it seems this is state law. The reps should have know this and amended their strategy accordingly.

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