Here's an even-handed take: [vox.com]

I honestly don't know how to respond to your comments without insulting you but I'll try.
First, both Sokal hoax's intended (and successful) purpose was to point out that certain publications considered SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS publish articles with conclusions/theories that were made in an UNSCIENTIFIC fashion i.e. they claim scientific evidence for things when there isn't any, or worse, when the evidence implies the opposite. This hoax, aside from accomplishing nothing of value, was merely an attempt to tarnish reputation. Quillette is not, nor has it ever claimed to be, a scientific journal. They do not publish studies. It's an editorial site. As for your use of "even-handed" as a descriptor for anything coming from Vox, a site that survives on ragebait, I'm at a loss for words due to the community guidelines of this site. The ridiculousness of the article is that is was right. It went viral (before it was taken down) for a reason. The majority of people of all stripes detest identitarian politics. I run my own construction company and I am a registered democrat. I have not voted for a presidential candidate since 2012. I have been in construction for 20 years and I have never met a "woke" construction worker that makes it in this business. Our revulsion towards regressive leftists in the trades is, as far as I've experienced, universal. And we're talking about Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents etc. If you can't handle loud noises or "gendered language" you have precisely zero chance of being able to build a roof in August.

@LastLiberal You might want to examine why you're so quick to recognize a fraudulent article that confirms your biases as "right."

@WilyRickWiles He wrote an article from the perspective of a leftist, white, blue collar worker. And he nailed it. Knocked it out of the park. It's EXACTLY how we feel. That's what I mean by "he was right." Perhaps it was the wrong choice of words. Also, your complete disregard for how people like me, a significant chunk of the electorate, feel about this is the only thing "confirming biases" currently And is the driving force behind Trump. I also can't help but notice how you didn't respond to any of the actual content in my response to you.

@LastLiberal I'm not interested in overanalyzing this. The Vox take, which you automatically rejected, does a good job. Also, you're reading a LOT into what few words I've written here. But at the end of the day, how you "feel" about something has more to do with biases than the actual facts (not a fan, but cue Ben Shapiro).

@WilyRickWiles I didn't automatically reject Vox's take. I already read it. And they did exactly what anyone who is aware of Vox's MO would expect, and completely glossed over blue collar concerns. I'm not reading a lot into the few words you've written here. I'm reading a lot into the multitude of words and posts you share on here damn near every day. It's not that you're not interested in over analysis, your not interested in basic analysis. As evidenced by the few words you have written here and all the others I have seen in other posts. You read something that confirms your bias, take it at face value, and share. Take your first comment for example. You were just regurgitating the takeaway from the Vox post. No analysis. None. It could be summed with one quote from the author of the Quillette article (taken from the vox article)

“My takeaway from the Sokal thing is that their ideology determines the outcome despite whatever the evidence says, which I think is an appropriate comparison to what’s happened here,” Carter told me.

But here's the thing. The evidence supports outcome. There's a reason there was an embedded video in the article of the DSA convention. Because his criticisms of the DSA are spot on. They will go the way of Occupy due to the fact that their priorities will prevent them from accomplishing anything of value. The beginning of Occupy Wall Street was the most hopeful I have ever been for this country. Until I saw them waving their fingers around. Because they aren't serious. They are spoiled children. There was a zeitgeist that swept through the country after 2016. And it has been co-opted by fools and will be squandered by them. To quote Hunter S. Thompson:

"We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . . So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.”

@LastLiberal There's always a grain of truth, but the right has trouble extracting it from the "truthful hyperbole," to quote Trump's ghostwriter, that they are eager to hear.

@WilyRickWiles You're a liberal so I'm going to assume you enjoyed HBO's The Newsroom. I fuckin loved it. It you haven't seen it dude check it out and thank me later. That being said, Here's Will McAvoy confirming my bias in a fictional setting

@LastLiberal Yeah, I'm not that kind of liberal. There's definitely a certain liberal (i.e. class) bias in Sorkin's work.

@WilyRickWiles Care to elaborate?

@LastLiberal The liberalism of his fictional universe is a meritocratic one, where experts of the professional class deservedly benefit and have power, all problems are solved through the market, and there is no room for grassroots movements. It's a universe that basically erases politics and class. Grassroots activists are seen as immature or undeserving by virtue of not having social or actual capital.

I've seen the world from a relatively conservative, blue-collar (but kind of WASPy) perspective as a child, as a nascent left populist as a college student, as a Sorkin-style liberal as a professional, and now as a pragmatic democratic socialist, who has processed the merit and contradictions in liberal identity politics and seeks liberal reforms, social democracy, and democracy in the workplace (in that order). I see democratic movements as the way to achieve that--not relying on billionaires, foundations, the market, and consultants. Of course, movements are messy and sometimes require us to suppress our initial distaste at people who behave differently than us. And there will always be challenges bridging class and other differences.

@LastLiberal And if I fail to do analysis in many of my posts, that is because I am trying to balance out (in kind) what I believe to be a bad faith ideological project of the right.

@WilyRickWiles Here's where I disagree. I believe fiercely in meritocracy. If not merit based, what do we go with? If you have a better system I would love to hear it. I understand your criticism though, because in reality, it's not a total meritocracy. Some people game the system through various means. For example, look at Vox. Most of these people writing for Vox have credentials, experience or the moral fortitude to be a journalist. But they know if they say the right things, tow the right line and are willing to accept a substandard salary for their profession, they'll get the job. Same with the "news" sites on the right. As far as identity politics are concerned I fail to see a single merit besides garnering votes. Also you say "initial distaste for those that behave differently." I would argue that it's an evolutionary vestige that we haven't moved past yet naturally. In order to not let it effect you, you must recognize it exists, and why it was beneficial at a point in our collective past, and ignore it. And the truth of the matter is, all problems ARE solved through the market. It's just a VERY slow process. That being said, not all problems have to be solved through the market and in some instances, it would be advantageous to bypass the market. Additionally, there are a great many problems CAUSED by the market, which given enough time will work themselves out by the market, yet can be avoided completely by checking and regulating the market

@WilyRickWiles You can't balance out a bad move with another bad move or "respond in kind" as you put it. I'm no hippie but the only thing that kills hate is love, and the only thing that kills the lie, is the truth. That sentiment is why we have Trump. The cure for historic racism against Blacks, is not contemporary racism against whites.

@LastLiberal I used the term "identity politics" because it has become a popular stand-in for minority movements for equality, but I mean to distinguish between the liberal brand which is blind to class, opportunistic, and thus racially inflammatory, and authentic, class-conscious minority movements for equality.

@WilyRickWiles It hasn't become a popular stand in. It hasn't become popular at all. This is what I was telling you in our last exchange on one of your posts. Get out of that bubble man. If you want to know what the black community is experiencing, come to my neck of the woods and talk to them. They're not going to have the opinions you think. There's a reason why Black Lives Matter can't organize a million man march. Because there isn't a million people that believe in it enough to do so. There's a million black residents in the St. Louis metro area alone. Yet it was a minute fraction of that population that protested the shooting of Michael Brown. Have you ever asked yourself why?

@LastLiberal While I'm always trying to learn more about people outside my "bubble," I am aware that there are differences within the black community and that how those differences are formed, interact, and manifest politically is complex. But at the end of the day, I am going to listen most closely to members from the black community of younger generations.

@RafaelMspt That "supporters take him seriously, but not literally" is kind of what I'm getting at with the "truthful hyperbole." It doesn't matter to them that what he says may not be literally true, because they see it as addressing a deeper truth. But how in the world does one arrive at the truth via falsehoods? What can that deeper truth be if not their biases? Accordingly, I've heard many Trump supporters say "he says what we're all thinking." As you hinted with "they were tired of being told what they were (pick your blank-aphobe or blank-ist descriptor)," he is simply engaging in demagoguery. The in group vs. the other.

To me, democratic socialism means fighting on two fronts. Number 1 is electorally, to implement social-democratic programs for natural monopolies like healthcare and education. This is basically FDR-style liberalism. Number 2 is to bring more democracy into the workplace. That is, union democracy as opposed to the firm's authoritarianism. I don't necessarily see a need for any Constitutional changes.

As for the DSA convention, what you witnessed was the messiness of real democracy in action. The media created a spectacle of a few of the 1,000+ delegates, but at the end of the day the convention got its work done. If I could tweak the process, I would probably add more time so that they wouldn't feel so rushed.

@WilyRickWiles So you hang out with a lot of Black kids? Something tells me you don't and you're not listening to black youth.You're listening to the black youth that is on T.V...On the channels you prefer. I know a few dozen black kids. Most of em, are just kids that care about kid stuff just like every other kind of kid does . I have a couple black dudes that I consider true friends (I only have 4 real friends which I think is a healthy number) and I have a few black employees. All of which I met in the construction industry. All of which would never blame their problems on the color of their skin. My best friend was shot because he walked into the wrong house in an apartment complex in Texas after going outside to smoke and mistook the door he entered for the door belonging to the party he just walked out of. He has a bullet still lodged in his spine because he lacks the funds/insurance to have it removed safely. He was 6'3 and 190 lbs and used to love going to the beach because "Bitches love the afro bro." Now he's 5'10" and weighs 165 lbs because he has shriveled and walks with a cane now. I found out on facebook when someone messaged me a link "Attempted robbery goes wrong in Corpus Christi, suspect shot." My first thought was "Fuck, Jae caught a bullet." Second thought "Jae would never rob someone, either I'm a bad friend friend and this dude is doing some hard drugs and I didn't notice, or some tiny armed dude saw a big ass black dude stumblebum through his front door and bucked him." I talked to Jae as soon as he was released from the jail hospital. He told me he was on the phone and walked through the door he thought was the one he walked out of and "I was on the phone right, and I look up and this old white lady starts screaming and I'm like WTF is this bitch doin at this party, then this crazy dude runs out and shoots me in the stomach." His takeaway from this experience and I quote verbatim cause I'll never forget it "I know why this nigga was scared, some big ass fool walks in his front door like he owns the place on the phone laughing an shit all fucked up. Just wished he would've given me the chance to apologize and explain. Can't blame him too much though. Some big ass nigga lookin like me walks through my front door while I'm chillin in my whitie tighties at midnight on a friday, I'm buckin that mutha fucka too." I said, heartbroken "Dude, how the fuck fuck you walk into the wrong house!?" He responded "Man you know how these apartments be, they all look alike!" I started cracking up, then he started cracking up, then the tube running out of his stomach just filled up with blood and he passed out. I just tried to call him right now to get the link to the original article so I could share it. I'm not on facebook anymore and haven't been for years so I can't pull it up. But he goes to bed early nowadays. I'll share when he hits me p in the AM

@WilyRickWiles, @RafaelMspt Look to the Nordic countries. That's the ideal

@LastLiberal Thanks for sharing the story. Though I'm not sure what conclusion you intended me to draw from it, I think it is difficult to put a price on stories that allow you to see the world through someone else's eyes.

I live in a diverse upper-middle income neighborhood. Black people, as well as Hispanic and Asian people, are my neighbors, my co-workers, and my friends. I don't watch much TV, but I make an effort to identify individuals and movements from different backgrounds throughout my very segregated city.

@RafaelMspt Shit me too. I was just pointing out where american the source of American Democratic Socialist beliefs come from. The US isn't Norway. But the DSA likes to pretend if we enact the same policies it will turn out the same way

@RafaelMspt, @WilyRickWiles Yes. Upper middle class neighborhoods are sooo diverse. They're not. They're upper middle class. Doesn't matter the skin color of the people that live there.THAT'S THE POINT. You all live in little boxes...on a hillside...little boxes made of ticky tacky...little boxes all the same. QUIT LOOKING AT MELAMINE. Most insignificant characteristic of a person. Yet here we, debating about it

@RafaelMspt "I think those like you would gain much more traction by framing the concept away from the word socialism since you don’t seem to be advocating full government seizure of the economy."

The most accurate term would be "social democracy," which basically just describes a mixed economy. Of course social-democratic politics has some roots in socialism. And using the word socialism draws a clear contrast with the neoliberal status quo (as opposed to "progressivism" or just plain "liberalism" as FDR called it). There is also a tradition of libertarian socialism (or anarchism or left libertarianism, which is actually the original libertarianism), so socialism need not have an authoritarian state that controls the entire economy. Think George Orwell and some of the democracy movements that challenged the Soviet Union and communist China.

I think part of the problem with health care right now is that the government has one foot in and one foot out, distorting the market. And the ACA created complicated regulations that were gamed by corporate interests (some won and some lost). Universal healthcare would eliminate some of those interests, e.g., the insurance companies, and negotiate (with more bargaining power) prices for the others like big pharma. We can already see that even despite some waste, Medicaid, for example, is the most efficient health coverage. I don't think the rich and corporations outside of big pharma will have much of an interest in manipulating health care outside of perhaps bypassing the system with their money, which they can already do. And of course none of this will happen unless there is a movement demanding it and holding government accountable.

@RafaelMspt, @WilyRickWiles
"Whats the difference here? I see 2 amps"
-me
"well, this one goes to 11."
-You

@LastLiberal You know, maybe it's not that different, but the right (and liberal centrists for that matter) sure as hell is fighting hard not to give up that extra notch on the dial.

@WilyRickWiles I do know, and you're right...It's not that different. Be careful sir. You're dangerously close to getting it. Stop fighting the "bad guys." Fight the ideas

@WilyRickWiles It will require analysis though. or, as you call it, over analysis

@WilyRickWiles No shit man. People/HUMANS want data. yet anecdotes are powerful when the data backs it up

@RafaelMspt I think @LastLiberal was referring to me because I mentioned that the neighborhood I live in now is upper middle class. Albeit, probably the least wealthy of the upper middle class neighborhoods. And I definitely don't live in the suburban landscape that @LastLiberal painted. As a child, I was pretty poor for various reasons, but I was lucky to go to an upper middle class public school.

@RafaelMspt Healthcare wouldn't be controlled exactly the same as the public school system. I just see them both as natural monopolies. Though I do think that the federal government should have more of a role in equitable school funding. Where public schools are well funded and racially integrated, they are very good.

As for physician pay, I don't think it's a given that they will have to take a pay cut or at least a significant one. Existing proposals haven't focused on cuts for hospitals and physician salaries. But consider why people became school teachers for less pay than they might get in the private sector--it's a calling. Regardless, any legislation will have to account for the pains of transition and the demands that are currently placed on stakeholders.

And at the end of the day, we must consider the cost of not acting and perpetuating the conflicts of interests and unaffordability of the current system.