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"Christianity Today" is illustrative of postmodern Christianity today

  • not really seriously Christian and playing the left wing political correctness game. Everyone has to choose a side and they've chosen theirs. By the way, there have been MANY other things before this for quite some time that demonstrate their falling away from sound discernment, wisdom, and even truth.

Franklin Graham's Response to Christianity Today:

Christianity Today released an editorial stating that President Trump should be removed from office—and they invoked my father’s name (I suppose to try to bring legitimacy to their statements), so I feel it is important for me to respond. Yes, my father Billy Graham founded Christianity Today; but no, he would not agree with their opinion piece. In fact, he would be very disappointed. I have not previously shared who my father voted for in the past election, but because of this article, I feel it is necessary to share it now. My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation.

For Christianity Today to side with the Democrat Party in a totally partisan attack on the President of the United States is unfathomable. Christianity Today failed to acknowledge that not one single Republican voted with the Democrats to impeach the President. I know a number of Republicans in Congress, and many of them are strong Christians. If the President were guilty of what the Democrats claimed, these Republicans would have joined with the Democrats to impeach him. But the Democrats were not even unanimous—two voted against impeachment and one voted present. This impeachment was politically motivated, 100% partisan. Why would Christianity Today choose to take the side of the Democrat left whose only goal is to discredit and smear the name of a sitting president? They want readers to believe the Democrat leadership rather than believe the President of the United States.

Look at all the President has accomplished in a very short time. The economy of our nation is the strongest it has been in 50 years, ISIS & the caliphate have been defeated, and the President has renegotiated trade deals to benefit all Americans. The list of accomplishments is long, but for me as a Christian, the fact that he is the most pro-life president in modern history is extremely important—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that, to say it doesn’t count? The President has been a staunch defender of religious freedom at home and around the world—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that? Also the President has appointed conservative judges in record number—and Christianity today wants us to ignore that? Christianity Today feels he should be removed from office because of false accusations that the President emphatically denies.

Christianity Today said it’s time to call a spade a spade. The spade is this—Christianity Today has been used by the left for their political agenda. It’s obvious that Christianity Today has moved to the left and is representing the elitist liberal wing of evangelicalism.

Is President Trump guilty of sin? Of course he is, as were all past presidents and as each one of us are, including myself. Therefore, let’s pray for the President as he continues to lead the affairs of our nation.

Clarken 7 Dec 20
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Organised religion interfering with politics... who would have thought?

Hanno Level 8 Dec 20, 2019

Well, Christianity Today is not exactly organized religion. It's just a magazine that prints articles about what's happening in our culture and/or in organized religion from a supposed Christian perspective.

But the truth is, there is hardly a political issue that is not also a spiritual issue. And if Christians (as citizens) don't speak up about those issues, every one of them will become accepted practice and policy.

For instance: the subject of marriage. That is a spiritual, moral, and Biblical issue. Our law was always that "marriage" is between one man and one woman. That happened to come from the Bible before the US was ever formed. But it was put into our legal codes. Recently, the Judicial branch rewrote the definition of marriage so that two people of the same sex could be legally married rather than just considering it a same sex union. That may sound okay to a liberal person. But it is NOT legal because laws are created by the Legislative branch, not the Judicial branch. The House is supposed to write the law and the Senate is supposed to approve it. Then it goes to the Executive branch for approval before it is passed as new law. So there's still no legitimate law on the books saying two people of the same sex can be "married".

But this is a huge spiritual and moral issue for Christians because the Bible makes it clear that God does NOT approve and there are spiritual, moral, and even physical consequences. So Christian citizens are supposed care for others enough to speak up, warn, and vote for or against such issues. When they aren't effective, we get what we are now dealing with as the LGBTQ community pushes it down EVERYONE's throats (no pun intended) in the form of biological men (transgenders) using women's bathrooms and competing against girls and women in sports and forcing sex-ed classes to promote LGBTQ to the youngest of public school kids. The list goes on and on about how this spiritual, moral issue is hurting our society and everyone, those with moral and spiritual convictions as well as those without, are affected by it.

I even believe the 2nd Amendment is a spiritual issue because a Christian man is supposed to provide for his family, that includes providing for their safety and security. The 2nd Amendment assists us in doing that. Take it away and we are less able to fulfill our husbandly or fatherly duties. And a lady needs an effective way to defend herself against violent attacks. A conceal carry gun is a great equalizer.

So, yeah, Christians (not organized religion in the form of churches and such) need to be involved in all areas of the political process. However, I also believe that churches should not be told they aren't legally allowed to speak/preach on these issues which the Democrats consider political but Christians know are spiritual and Biblical. That is a restriction of 1st Amendment rights and is against the original intent of separation of church and state which was to guarantee the state does NOT dictate affairs within the church. It was not intended to keep Christians from influencing government.

@Clarken a lot there... some I agree with... however let’s start with the worst:

Marriage comes from the Bible...
No it does not. Marriage predates Christianity and Judaism by Millenia. Marriage may be arguably a moral issue, however it is NOT a spiritual or Biblical issue. It is a legal issue first and foremost today. Originally it was a survival issue, strong permanent or rather long term partners survived better and raised more kids. It has been included in most religions, however no religion today founded it.

You complain that the LGBT people are pushing their agenda down our throats (I happen to agree btw), however you also now insist that Christians need to push their agenda down everyone else’s throat.
You spot the hypocracy?

@Clarken So the second amendment only applies to Christian men? Does Muslim and Hindu men also need to take of their families?

Do only Christians interfere and need to be heard or also Buddhists and Sikhs?

Because they are not part of any religion, should the views of Humanists and Agnostics be ignored?

Do you understand that marriage is just as important to all the groups I mentioned above and your views on it is not more important than anyone else’s... including those who believe that marriage may be between same sex people?

Finally, allowing same sex people to be married, how does this diminish your own marriage? How does this affect you? Why do you want to take ownership of something that belongs to everyone and make yourself judge and jury in something that predates all religion?

@Hanno
Wo, wo, wo, Hanno. First, the subject article and your comment was on Christianity. So my response explained things from a Biblically Christian point of view having to do with the US (not global society) since Trump was also the issue. I know people will not agree with it. But I stated what is seen as truth from the Biblical Christian perspective and US law. There is no offense intended and it's okay to disagree on weather it should or should not be.

2nd, from your comments, it doesn't sound like you have read the Bible or know it's history much less believe it as truth or as inspired by God Himself. You can look up online the dates of the first books within the Bible - they date back to around 2000 BC. The first marriage was 2000 years before that in Genesis 1 and 2. So that's around 4000 BC.

But you're right, Judaism didn't really begin until Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (somewhere around 2100 BC) when God made His covenant with Abraham. Judah (around 1900 BC) was one of Jacob's 12 sons. And Christianity didn't begin until the first century obviously, since our dating system goes by BC and AD (before Christ and Anno Domini or year of our Lord) referring to Jesus Christ who was at least a historic figure (whether or not people believe Him to be the Messiah or Savior). So yes, marriage began probably 2000 years before Judaism. Nevertheless, it is recorded in the Bible and there is record of the lineage from the first couple (Adam & Eve) clear through Jesus there as well.

All of that was my point. Of course if someone believes in the Theory of Evolution, they obviously won't believe that. But until the last 75 years in America, no one believed in that Theory. And only in the current generation (era) has it become accepted as anything other than theory. Some say it's scientific. Others disagree in the validity of that science. The Bible is proven as accuarte by archeological science and historical science as well as fulfilled prophecies. And nothing in it has been conclusively disproven by any kind of real science. See [everystudent.com] (which I just looked up for myself - like most of the facts I'm writing here).

Third, my comment about marriage (and the LGBTQ agenda) goes back to your issue with religion incerting itself into politics. Is this only a political issue? No. It is a spiritual, moral, and Biblical issue. That was my point. What you probably don't know is that America was founded by people in search of a place where they would have the freedom to practice their Christian religion without interference from government. That's right - Christian religion. Most of our founding fathers have written documents that prove that. And as they formed our government, they encorporated their Biblical beliefs into the Declaration of Independance which included references to belief in God ("the laws of nature and nature's God" and "endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" ).

I'm not saying that everyone in America (or the world) must be Christian to have rights. I'm just making statements of truth about the history of my country which has until recently always been considered a Christian nation ("One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and "In God We Trust" ). These are indisputable facts - though I acknowledge some are trying to change or erase historic truth.

Finally, it is not shoving Christianity down anyone's throat in our government. It is interwoven in who we are from the beginning of the USA. Christianity has been a force for great good in our country - in our laws which limit harmful acts such as theft, murder, and rape. It is what encouraged people like Abraham Lincoln to believe in the equality of all men (thus the civil war to free slaves). The 10 commandments are posted in our Capital Building in the halls of congress, I believe, even today. They were always in our public schools and taught along with the Golden Rule to "Do unto others as you would have them to do unto you." These are all part of what made America what it is today.

I understand you view things differntly in your country & society. I'm just giving you the history of my country and culture as well as Christian influence in it, since that was what began the entire post/converstion. There is no hypocracy there.

Alexis de Tocqueville (born July 29, 1805, Paris, France—died April 16, 1859, Cannes), political scientist, historian, and politician, best known for Democracy in America, 4 vol. (1835–40), a perceptive analysis of the political and social system of the United States in the early 19th century said "I sought for the key to the greatness of America in her harbors; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America ceases to be great."

@Hanno
So I don't want to be as long on this reply about the 2nd Amendment and such.

You've taken my words out of context. The 2nd Amendment applies to all citizens of the United States. Our Bill of Rights - Ammendments to our Constitution) are guaranteed to US citizens only. ALL US citizens have the same rights in America regardless of "race", religion, ethnicity, creed, or gender. I have no more and no less rights than someone of different persuasion as long as they are US citizens.

The same sex marriage issue seems important to you. I told you how it came about to be accepted in our country. There literally is still no law on the books in America that changes the definition of "marriage" from being between one man and one woman. That was a Judicial branch decision in 2013, and they do NOT write law. For it to be legal, it must be created by the House, passed by the Senate, and signed by the President. That way it is representative of the will of the citizens of the US. That's how things are done legally in America. Or at least up until President Obama. see [britannica.com]

So it is unfair to state that I "take ownership" of this issue. I simply stated what I understand to be the truth in our country. It is understandable that you have difficulting swallowing it since you grew up and live in a society that is very very different from the United States of America.

Feel free to research everything online. I'm not a great historian and I have to look things up myself to get details close to being accurate. Even then, I know I will make mistakes. But it really helps to keep things in context and not put words or meaning there which were not intended. Again, no offense is meant at any time in any of what I've said. If I didn't care, I'd be like a couple of the others who just call you an ugly name and tell you where to go. I don't want to be like that.

@Clarken Hi Clarken. Again thanks for the explanations. I am using a phone to discuss here so very long responses is problematic.

It is the nature of a discussion site such a this that we make assumptions about each other. I dislike talking about myself, however I need to say that I have been a Protestant Christian for 20 years and then a evangelical missionary for 13 as part of the Boston Movement, Church of Christ. My three year journey to become and agnostic is a personal one.
What I am trying to say is that I not only read the Bible from cover to cover several times, but studied every NT book in detail at least once and most of the OT books as well.
One of my favourite studies was the early history of the bible and actual chronology of the NT books. This unfortunately is also what started my personal road to agnosticism.
I am trying to say that I was exactly where you are now, Bible study and prayer group leader.
But enough of that.

@Clarken I need to ask if you are a creationist?
I generally do not have much to discuss with creationists other than to say at least you are honest.

I can take you on a journey of physics and chemistry, geology and astronomy, archeology and anthropology, to show you numerous problems regarding the Bible.
However, I do not think that is useful.
I do not “believe” in evolution... I do not believe anything. It is an acceptance and understanding of what evidence and deductions we make from what we have in front of us... I also do not believe in gravity or any other scientific theory... but accept it based on the strength of the evidence and my understanding of it.

@Clarken So my response to your response is at first that you brought up marriage as an institution created in the Bible. No, evidence of long term couples dates to ceremonial burials dating 75 000 years or more back... the Stormsrivier caves in South Africa if memory serve as well as the Kango caves.
In the second, I am extremely knowledgeable of the Bible and especially its very early history.
Then, if you believe that the first marriage occurred in Genesis 1/2, there is much I can say about that, but it will not be useful. The literal believe in Genesis 1/2 flies so much in the face of everything we discovererd the past 200 years... This must have been pointed out to you by others. You made a decision on what you believe and I will not try to convince you otherwise.

@Clarken so to conclude my long response:
My issue is not same sex marriages (I do not care what others do as long as they do not hurt others, it is none of my business). It is not important to me at all.

My issue is that people feel that because of some believe system they get to dictate to other people how they should live their lives. In this case telling people who they should be allowed to marry and who not. It is just an example of a wider problem we have in the world.

I know a lesbian couple who has a healthy happy relationship that now extends into its third decade... who is anyone to tell them they cannot get married in their own religion?

Sorry, one more question: if you feel that Christianity was part of the foundation of the USA and should be recognised in law, should Sharia law also be recognised in Muslim countries as part of law?

@Hanno
I appreciate you explaining to me about your background in the Church of Christ, Boston Movement (International Churches of Christ, right?) Yes, it's good you left that. It's actually not part of Biblical Christianity. The reason I say that is because they teach you must be from the CoC or you are not saved. And you must be baptized in the CoC or you are not saved. Everyone outside of the CoC (even if they by faith trust fully in Christ as their savior) is not saved. That is the definition of a cult - along with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

So it was good you left the CoC. They obviously took you down the wrong roads - you know what those roads are from experience better than I do from research. But THEY failed you, not God or His word.

As for having been like me, I'm just a Bible believing Christian who has been for 55 years. I don't lead Bible studies or prayer groups. Where ever we have lived, my wife and I do our best to attend Bible believing churches. We've been in Christian & Missionary Alliance, Baptist, Nazarene, Evangelical Free, and non-denominational churches - as long as they preach sound truth from the Bible. Lately, we've found that Baptists are the closest to staying in line with scripture - though it really depends on which church you attend.

Both my wife and I read the Bible every day. I decided about 20 years ago I wanted to read it at least once per year, having done so numerous times before that. Because I had more time as a retiree, I decided I'd get more out of it if I read it twice per year. So I did that 2 years and last year I read it 3 time thru. That doesn't make me feel better or smarter than anyone. But I enjoy what I learn and relearn. My mind and memory isn't good enough that I can retain details. I'm a principles oriented person. So when answering questions, I have a good general idea but I have to look up the details. I've also got quite a bit of background and knowledge about other religions, but still have to refresh my memory when details are important.

@Hanno
Creationist? Well, I believe God created the universe as His word records in the first two chapters of Genesis and repeats numerous times throughout scripture.

But I've gone on the journey you mentioned a number of times and I don't have enough faith to believe in men's sciences or to believe they know better than God's word. Men are just not that smart. Men discover lots that is true - much of which is already revealed in the Bible. But they are also VERY fallible and tend to get more wrong than right. They call it settled science - until something else comes up that unsettles it then that's the NEW settled science. Thanks, but I'll stick with the historically & archeologically scientific Truth of the Bible which has stood the test of time stronger and longer than absolutely anything else in this world.

I know you're agnostic not atheist, but I recently saw a great movie of a journalist who set out to disprove the Bible and Christianity using every possible science and evidence he could find. You might find the movie interesting if nothing else. see the entire movie online here:

@Clarken thanks for all that. As I said, at least you are honest.
I had a friend that wanted to prove that gods do not exist from scientific point of view about 10 years ago.
I told him he is wasting his time.
Believe in Gods is what we call an untestable hypothesis... and science has no interest in those.

You can also not disprove the existence of unicorns on Pluto, or fairies in the Amazon. So saying that you cannot disprove something is no prove if it’s existence at all. But I think you know that already.

I have always stated that I will believe in any god or deity if only one, just one piece of evidence can be produced to prove that gods existence.

But we digress... my original point is and remain that we cannot dictate to others based on our own beliefs.
You chose Biblical truth, I chose science. Neither of us such be controlling others free will, unless of course it hurts others and we agree laws need to limit that free will.

Having said that, I agree with 90% of Biblical morals and ideals ( as I do with Buddhism ). So our households may be very similar!

Have a great holiday season.

@Hanno
Yeah, I've heard similar "proof" before but I just don't have as much faith as you do to accept what fallible and deceitful men say over what the Bible says, which has stood the test of time longer and stronger than absolutely anything else on earth.

Saying 75,000 years is as random as saying 10,000,000 years. If people have existed even half that long, there would be a multitude of documents all along the way. The "scientific" dating process is so ridiculously flawed. It starts off with the answer, then makes the method prove what they want it to say. All these scientists have an agenda.

It's similar to the climate science hoax. "97% of the scientists agree that the planet is warming because of man." Follow the money. They agree because there is little to no integrity among scientists. They need money for research. They get grants if they give the right answers. If they don't give the acceptable answers, they get no money. It's a game of survival. But those with no agenda or greed have very different answers.

My explanation for the earth appearing old is the same as in the creation of Adam and Eve. They were not created as brand new babies. They were created as adults with the appearance of age - same with the earth, stars, moon, etc. Which came first, the egg or the chicken? This may be simplistic, but sometimes the simple answer is actually the right one. Finding sea shells and such in the stata/layers on mountains and cliffs far inland is easily explained by the global flood recorded in Genesis.

Non-believers have been going to great extent to disprove the Bible for a very long time. They use the same tactics the Democrats are using to impeach Trump. Not buying it here.

@Clarken All good Clarken. I do not debate with Creationists about Creation or evolution or age of the earth etc. It is a futile exercise.

It is OK what you believe as long as you do not attempt to limit what I “believe”. I think that was my original intent of my first post.

I will however debate things with you where we have common ground... such as human rights and freedoms, taxation and application of raised taxes, dishonesty of humans and other interesting things that matters to where the world is going.

Good talking to you.

@Hanno

If people want same sex relations they will have them. Laws can't stop that nor should they necessarily. But to call it marriage is the problem. If a man wants to call himself a woman, does that make him one? No. He can dress like one. He can cut off his genitals. But he's still a man. A man is a man and a woman is a woman because of their make-up - XX or XY chromosomes. Marriage is made up of a man and a woman. That's the definition of marriage. To redefine it based on personal opinion does not change it. Can a man be married to a dog? Can a grown woman or man be married to 10 year old boy or girl? How about 3 people being in the marriage? All of these examples and more are not ridiculous examples because they are all what people have tried to get accepted as "marriage". People will have whatever kind of relationship they want, but that doesn't make it a "marriage."

About the foundation of the US, I don't "feel like" Christianity was part of the founding, it actually was. I don't know what countries were actually founded with sharia from the beginning - not saying there aren't any, but I don't know which were. And to be honest, knowing the history of Islam with Muhammad, I know it to be a political military ideology that followers developed into what has been called a religion. I don't have anything against people who call themselves muslims as long as they actually reject all the "convert the infadel or kill the infadel" jihadi ideology. Most of them will not speak against other radical muslims that promote jihad.

Religions are generally expected to promote love and peace - even with those who disagree with their beliefs. Islam is not only antisemitic but they are extremely anti-Christian and there are regular killings/executions of these "infadels" (or those who have converted to Christianity) in many muslim countries. But for some reason, EVERYONE (regardless of "religion" ) wants to come to America where they have freedom of "religion". Israel also has freedom of religion, even for muslims. So, yeah, I have a problem with muslim nations that do NOT allow Christians and Jews the same courtesy and freedom. Is that fair?

@Hanno
I'm with you on that. Of course, America is unlike any other nation. We are also happily different and rebel against being told our way is inferior and that we should change to be more like Europe or whatever. No country or system of government or beliefs is perfect because of the human factor. But Americans are fiercely patriotic and mostly pleased with the success of our capitalist democratic republic. Not all change is good even if they tell us it is. Like I said in the last response, if America is soooo bad, what does EVERYONE want to come here.

That's not to accuse you of saying America is bad. It's actually more our Democrats that say it is - for political control reasons.

Talk to you again on other issues/posts. You should watch that movie - I'm not trying to convert you, it's just an interesting and overall well produced movie. But maybe you aren't a movie person like I am.

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Well, we may get to see what happens with Christianity Today after their latest foray into true Christianity. Attacking God's anointed is not very smart. Appreciate Franklin Graham.

dmatic Level 8 Dec 20, 2019

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