Amen and Amen!

WWG1WGA!

not familiar with that one: do however know what WYSIWYG is (phonetically pronounced Wizzy Wig)

It means: "What you see is what you get"

@iThink Really?

@jakuboj lol - yes really. LOL!

@iThink Q

sorry I thought I attached the vid - BRB! LOL

there it is!

Thanks

I believe Presidents Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Adams and Adams...all were proudly and openly Patriotic to their newly established Nation and they were eager to establish trade with other Nations. But I am sure that as they all strived for fair trade they no doubt held Americas interest as their first priority.
In the modern era we had a number of Presidents who I consider "disloyal" of not outright traitorous. I'll start with Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, both Bushes, Obama to name a few - think about it and add the ones you think were not so patriotic while carrying out their duties as President.

@iThink Most of those were just unsupportive of the Constitution and thought it out of date. Calling it a "living document" - meaning we should make some changes. Obama was perhaps the most unpatriotic.
I would count Woodrow Wilson as being unpatriotic and one of the worst Presidents. Then there was FDR. I think he was patriotic but the push during his Presidency was to try socialism. It was working well in Germany and Italy - until it wasn't. Lincoln's objective was to preserve the Union so in that respect I would say he was patriotic but the civil war was an horrendous cost of American lives and property destruction. He passed the emancipation act in the middle of the war to create some turmoil
among Blacks in the south. Civil society was already frowning on slavery and it probably would have just disappeared in 20 or 30 years anyway. That sort of transition would have been a lot better for the slaves who had nowhere to go and not many options of what to do. The war was not entirely about slavery or so it seems.Ending slavery was simply a highlight that ended an era.

@iThink I might add Lyndon B. Johnson and Richard M. Nixon. Perhaps not 'traitorous' in the manner of those you named but Johnson was as politically self serving in his domestic policies as any and Nixon seems now tragically naive in trusting Kissinger and believing that China could be influenced to move toward democratic ideals. Both instituted policies that have devolved into todays greatest political crises for the nation.

@FrankZeleniuk
As nothing more than an armchair observer of the history of these things I agree with your observations of the Presidents you speak of - perhaps with one unqualified exception. Abraham Lincoln in regard to placing blame for the eventuality of hostilities between North and South. The Civil War itself.

I don't know that "slavery would have otherwise just disappeared in 20 or thirty years" - actually I highly doubt it - knowing the nature of human nature in a manner of speaking.

As for who or what started the Civil War always seemed to be a differnet form of the old rhetorical philosophical question - "what came first; the chicken or the egg".
The problem with that question (re. the Civil War) is that it is only posited in an attempt to place blame while excusing the questioners chosen side of the matter itself. Personally I do not see blaming Abraham Lincoln as a definitively correct or righteous position on the matter.

I do believe that the literal conflagration known was The Civil War - the massive loss of human life cannot be blamed on any particular man. I believe it was inevitable in that it was born of a Cultural ideology on how disputes were customarily and often resolved up and until the conclusion (postbellum) of the Civil War. That being the acceptable custom of defending ones "honor" and reputation by indulging in duel. Duels were acted out by use of lethal weaponry - Either dueling pistols or Sword fighting.

Robert E Lee is IMHO a perfect example of a man of "Honor and sound Reputation" is a case in point. Lee was known to have participated in a duel where dueling pistols were the weapon of choice. Lee was wounded in that duel but he survived.

Unwisely Robert E Lee chose to go with his "beloved State of Virginia" (a Confederate State) as a matter of His Own personal Honorable Reputation. IMHO after the Civil War ended Robert E Lee should have been hung for treason because he chose his personal Honor and Reputation over his sworn and official duty to The United States of America.

The point being that the placement of blame for the eventuality of the US Civil War cannot be placed on any one person nor IMHO on the fact of Human Slavery itself. The fundamental cause of the Civil War and many previous Wars in Europe was the inevitable outgrowth of Traditional European Aristocratic Culture of bloody violence in defense of Reputation and Honor.

@Geofrank Both of those men were "Career Professional Politicians" - Trump os Not nor has he ever been a politician - not by training or education and certainly not by Profession.

@iThink

I don't know that "slavery would have otherwise just disappeared in 20 or thirty years" - actually I highly doubt it - knowing the nature of human nature in a manner of speaking.

Social and peer pressure can be pretty heavy forces when exerted - especially when backed by government. Notice how today we are being subjected to social pressures supported by the democrats.
We have to announce our pronouns. We need to embrace diversity, inclusion and equity. Granted this would be going nowhere without a democratic administration that has been taken over by Marxists.
A lot of us are aware of where that pressure is coming from and resistance to this wokeness is mounting.

Slavery in the South faced not only social pressure from the North but the pressure of western civilization to end the institution. It was also becoming apparent that slavery was not economical. Slaves could no longer be legally imported so they were getting scarcer and on the underground market more expensive to buy. They had to be fed, clothed, sheltered and additionally bounty had to be paid to return runaway slaves if they could be caught.

It was time to reconsider slavery. Paid labor was the way to go. Pay them a buck a day. Rent a shack to them for shelter, they can look after their own necessities. The war was unnecessary, in my view - if it was entirely about slavery - but it wasn't. It was primarily about unfair taxation. The emancipation act served to give the North a position of moral superiority in the war from an historic perspective and made it in retrospect the focus of the war.

With slavery gone, the new villain could be the greedy capitalist.
There is certainly a lot of social pressure being applied there today!

@FrankZeleniuk

( Slaves could no longer be legally imported so they were getting scarcer )I did not know of this policy of the time period.
Was this prohibition enacted by Congress? Was Lincoln POTUS at that time?

I think there is merit to your argument on the eventual abandonment of human slavery in America at that time - but I respectfully disagree.
Well, let me qualify that. I can see where it was possible but I remain skeptical about it.

@iThink Thomas Jefferson banned the import of slaves from Africa in 1803. They were still smuggled in though.