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Why do some people find it hard to accept losing an argument or even settle with 'agree to disagree'? They have to have the last word. Low self-esteem? Self-importance? Arrogance?
And how do you deal with such individuals?
It's not limited to differences in political views by the way.
Thanks for your input and wisdom in advance. 🙂

Naomi 8 Feb 21
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1

Why do some people find it hard to accept losing an argument or even settle with 'agree to disagree'? They have to have the last word. Low self-esteem? Self-importance? Arrogance?
And how do you deal with such individuals?
It's not limited to differences in political views by the way.
Thanks for your input and wisdom in advance.

It’s unfortunate to know there are some individuals who refuse to accept losing an argument. There are actually various amounts of reasons why this is handled this way. Making assumptions for the reason why can seem overwhelming, but could be eye opening. It really depends on your own level of patience and the other persons level of arrogance.

If the other is willing to listen you have a good shot at getting through to them. This could be through logic and fact checking. Usually using reliable sources can wedge doubt in the other persons thought pattern. For me, it’s not about getting the other person to agree with me but to see a different perspective.

I’ve come across people with different reactions, and the best advise I can give is, is it with trying to convince them to change the other person’s thought pattern or get them to see there’s more than once side to things?

Do what makes you happy, because at the end of the day you want to be content.

Good advice.

Welcome to the community BTW. 🙂

0

EVERYONE'S root philosophy is opportunistic or they would be dead.

The argument is only who is willing to expose their morality most adjacent to that.

Once you discover that the other has a different level of public morality, there is NOTHING you can do to change their mind rhetorically. Physical influence must be introduced-- a piece of candy, money, etc.

0

Unless violence is used, an argument is ideological.

To lose an argument is to acknowledge that either your competence or morality is inferior.

Ultimately at the root of every question is the split philosophy: Opportunistic vs Altruistic.

In public, one must be seen as Altruistic. If the opportunistic morality is allowed to be seen, you can't be trusted.

Trust is the only thing of value.

If you lose an argument, you potentially lose trust.

To lose trust is evolutionarily a death sentence.

Money has replaced trust as currency. The dynamic has changed.

3

Someone who refuses to accept losing an argument, or conceding stalemate, isn't interested in having a relationship. They are interested in exercising power over others. I deal with such individuals by not having a relationship with them.

Hello. Very wise. Welcome to the community, btw. 🙂

3

The objective in any discussion should be to discover the most unassailable principles that apply to the situation. These will point to the resolution. With that approach every question is resolvable. There will still be people who will not accept the resolution and that is because of a stubborn refusal to consider any argument that goes against what the person wants to believe.

Stubborness- yes, that's a problem. Lol

1

I personally have a problem with those who try to use the "cop out" of stating that "we'll have to agree to disagree". In 100 % of the cases where I've heard someone use that lame excuse, each had no idea or any significant knowledge about the topic in which they chose to argue (not debate). In each case, without exception, the person decided to claim something wrong about a topic or in several instances butt in to inform others that they were wrong, without ever providing a legitimate reason.
Such people are simply rude, uninformed in the area in which they are arguing, and too mentally weak to actually do the research needed to gain any insight into the topic.

Hello. Argument is an exchange of opposite views, especially an angry one. It can turn into an exchange of ad hominem responses, in which case "agree to disagree" can be used as an excuse, like you say, or a tactic to disengage from the argument that is no longer meaningful.

2

"I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic." Abigail Adams. It's rare that there is only one point of view that is valid. It's rarer still that one can find people like Abigail spoke of.
An argument ensues whenever one party cannot accept the other's point of view and tries to prove themselves right and the other wrong. As Edgework pointed out, the argument usually stops when you allow the other to be right, however, I have found out that for some argumentative types that's not enough. Best to walk away on the high road with a smile.

Hello. Very wise. 🙂

1

Because they consider themselves to be correct

Hello. Or they realise that they're wrong but they're so stubborn that they won't admit it. So, they've got to have the last word. Lol

3

You answered your own question as to the why. As to the how, usually not much you can do about people like that. Just abort if possible until they wake up. I know that's not a helpful opinion and discouraging, but that's the best I have for the moment.

2

I hate landing on "agree to disagree"... that means you just wasted each other's time.
If you truly disagree, and you're actually talking about the same thing... which isn't a given; then that means at least one of you is wrong.
If the topic is meaningful at all (and if it isn't, why are you arguing?), then it might be useful to figure out which it is.

Hello. You've got me thinking about the 'agree to disagree' bit.
If you're discussing on cons and pros of something, it's not necessarily about who is right or wrong and it's not a waste of time discussing it - you're open to dialogue. Let's think... Brexit is a good example, I think.

@Naomi Hello. Well, I guess that depends on the objective of the discussion.
I guess most broad topics like that are almost entirely subjective at the superficial levels.
If you're just expressing your opinion, then who could say that you're wrong?
"Brexit was a bad idea", and "Brexit was a good idea" are equally valid; neither is objectively true.
To insist that you agree with my unfounded opinion would just be pathological, if I've given you no compelling reason to change your mind.

For that, you have to dig down into why each of you thinks it's good or bad.
Some degree of reasoning, about some set of facts, has led each of you to your respective opinions.
Those facts, and that reasoning, are either true or not-true, sound or unsound.
If you disagree with my unsupported opinion, then I can't argue with that.
If you disagree with sound reasoning about objective facts that led to that opinion... well that's just incorrect. 😉
Likewise, if I've demonstrated conclusively that your opinion does not have the foundation in reality that you thought it had; then for you to cling to it anyway by "agreeing to disagree" would just be irrational.
Again: one of us is wrong, and it might be useful to figure out which one.

As I stated in a posting above, each time I've encountered someone claiming that "we'll simply have to agree to disagree", I've been "dealing with someone who wanted to argue but who was unable to bring any factual information or logical reasoning to the table. Once they found that they were being completely overwhelmed with facts (which they obviously didn't like), they tried to slime their way out with the silly "agreeing to disagree" statement.
One of the most resent was an ignorant person butting into my conversation with someone else to call me a "climate denier" despite the fact that I've been involved in climate study for a long time and am very well aware that: first there is a climate (no denial there) and secondly: our current climate is continuing to change, just as it always has in the past (no denial there). In short, the person butting in knew absolutely nothing about how our climate functions (actually, multi climates).
This was just one and the most recent example.

I recently watched a debate between Bret Weinstein and Richard Dawkins. They are both evolutionary biologists and they are friends. The debate lasted about an hour, and now and then they said "Ah, that's where we think differently." or "We've always disagreed on this one." or something along those lines. They obviously had their own sets of facts and evidence to back their points but they never reached (or didn't try to reach) the conclusion which one of them was right or wrong. Isn''t that kind of "agree to disagree"? It's all right to end a debate like that, sometimes, no?

@Naomi Hi Naomi.
Oh sure... again, at the superficial level of normal conversation you're really just expressing your opinions anyway. You can't go all the way down every rabbit hole, some of them are pretty deep.
I guess with each rabbit hole you abandon, you could say you're "agreeing to disagree"; which really means "I'm right and you're not, but let's move on."
Like I said, it just bugs me because that means you didn't accomplish anything.

A debate is useless as a means to arrive at "the Truth", anyway.
"Winning" a debate has nothing in the world to do with being right; only with being convincing.
And, that depends as much on the audience as it does on the participants and their performances.

Hi rway. In addition to what you say, I like it when discourse progresses in a constructive manner. Many people are far too quick to resort to ad hominem responses, I think.

@Naomi unfortunately, yes. It's so much easier to assume that the other person is just too stupid to understand, or has some hidden motivation; than it is to address the more-likely reality that I'm just not making my point very convincingly... or maybe I'm actually wrong in the first place... (nahhh) 🙂

@Naomi : My main point is that if only one one side brings facts to the table, the "agree to disagree" statement is simply an admission by the one with no factual information that they don't know what they are talking about, while trying both to argue and to save face.

3

See "Cathexis."

Sometimes we have reason to think we're correct. Having said that, sometimes just being right doesn't satisfy, so what else is at work? When you see someone trying to cut a tunnel through granite and you know there's a path around the hill, the inclination is to offer another way. Not everyone wants to take that way. And not everyone can accept that. And of course, they may be digging the tunnel for entirely different reasons than getting to the other side. It behooves us to remember that our assumptions may be in error.

Often, there is a needfulness on both sides of an argument. On the other hand, maybe a child is watching. Then what? Is the lesson about the issue at hand, or is it about comportment? It's almost never a life or death issue. On the other hand, what if it is a life and death issue? Knowing the difference makes a difference.

Generally, the person who HAS TO WIN, is committed to something, but what that something is can range from Truth to Self-aggrandizement to Narcissism to Deceit to Neurosis to Guilt---and a million other things. In the end, you can only come close to knowing yourself.

And this addendum: The most compelling reason for needing to win is tied to Survival or perceived Survival, usually as a matter of personal identity. We get pretty fussy when we feel that a piece of ourselves is being chipped away. I know I do.

2

Most people who we revere as wise or competent often come across as arrogant. Philosophers, politicians, scientists, pretty much the top section of any hierarchical structure. Especially when you get into matters of truth, no one likes lukewarm people who can never stand for anything and sway to and from depending on the weather and the state of their digestion. I think there’s an important difference between a wise confidence and arrogance. The difference is humility. Whenever I come across someone who acts as if they got things figured out, I count it as a mark of a fool. A wise man knows how little we really know...I can see how even that may seem arrogant lol

Hello. Sometimes people get so fixated to their opinions and beliefs that they can't see any other way. It's so important to have an open mind.

@Naomi

Should one have a completely open mind on all matters all the time? That would seem to be the ideal person who has the highest of self esteem and lowest in arrogance, no? But I think we would agree that that would be a bit extreme because one has to believe in something at some point. So the question then is, where can you justly draw the line? Or can anyone truly justify any line anywhere?

This conversation (the whole “you must keep an open mind”, which I agree with on the surface) seems to take a turn into a relativistic world view in a hurry, which is a common view in academics of our time. This for me would be something I would confess I’m closed minded on and the implications of that reach to every level of any other opinion I have. If two people can’t even agree that truth can be objective, what kind of middle ground can be found? If middle ground could be found, would that be more beneficial to the individuals or the topic at large? I wouldn’t think so.

@JoeySparks Open-mindedness is receptiveness to new ideas and possibilities. One cannot be a free critical thinker without presupposing open-mindedness in my opinion.

@Naomi May I?

@Terence57 Yes, you may.

@Naomi
Depending on the attitudes of participants, Argument in its truer sense can be illuminating, regardless of agreement. In its more debased application, no amount of commonality will bring any sort of accord. That's why we say "bargaining or Arguing-in-good-faith."

You and Joey are onto one of the real hurdles to legitimacy. There is an Objective World and a Subjective Realm. The trick is to perceive and speak of things in the Objective World in an objective way, and to discern what is Subjective and deal with those things appropriately.

Our humanity defines us as having one foot in either area. It is possible to be a success in every objectively quantifiable way, yet, only "half alive." On the flip side, you may have noticed a trend in the last few years of persons trying to bend objective reality to their subjective needs. It never goes well.
T

@Terence57
'A trend in the last few years of persons trying to bend objective reality to their subjective needs.' That's very true (which I consider to be objective truth Lol). Also, there seems to be a trend that people fail to, or decide not to, embrace complex and nuanced discussions. It is problematic when people cannot remain positive, objective and nuanced, and therefore ignore facts.

@Naomi
Sooner or later it gets down to gut level trust, agreeing, disagreeing, teasing out the nuances, whatever. More is lost between persons who think they're in agreement (but who are less than honest), than between those hashing out their legitimate disagreements. And it touches upon another area of the human challenge, what kind of life do I want to live?

5

Once it’s clear they aren’t interested in a free exchange of ideas, I’ll say, “So your position is X, Y, and Z? Do I have that right?” When they agree I say, “Ok, Got it.”

Whoever next fills the following silence, loses, whether they realize it or not. If they push their point further, I nod and say, “Really. I got it.” If they get angry and want to argue, don’t. Eventually they’ll go away with only the sound of their BS ringing in their ears.

Nice technique. I will have to try it. I would usually say "we will have to agree to differ" in the situation described.

4

I ignore after the third "yeah but....".

Saves on my cannabis costs.

3

Everyone suffers from feelings of insecurity at some time and/or in certain situations and those that appear arrogant or full of self importance are usually behaving that way because they are insecure. If you really are confident in yourself you don’t care what people think or what they think about you so you don’t need to be arrogant or to have the last word.
It’s difficult to take on board but most people’s behaviour is more about themselves than about the people they are interacting with.
This also applies to debates or arguments although the actual subject of what arguments/debates are and how they work in practice is a subject in itself and can cover volumes.

4

My ex was like that, always had to have the last word no matter what. Over time, and only after I divorced her, did I learn to have fun with it. She called me long distance once, and my mom was visiting at the time. The ex had a fit about something for about an hour, and when she was ready to hang up I said the right thing to get her riled up and carrying on. I kept her on the phone for over 4 hours. My mom was confused, but when I hung up I explained the call was on her dime, and this was before cell phone with the cheap long distance calls. That call cost her quite a bit. Humor was the best way I found in dealing with her. Always find something about the situation that could make me laugh.

That's evil but I like it.

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