Wonderfully said!

How can fear of god exist when god is not understood or realized?

Can you please explain your idea of god? Why does your god possess specific character attributes that differs largely from others gods from across planet earth?

@ConsciousBeing God is the beginning and the end. God is everything, and the source of everything. He is the purely actual actualizer, and the unchanging changer. God is our creator who has granted us vision, ability, resources and free will. He has shared with us the path for eternal life, as well as the path for desolation. And our choices remain our own. Most every violation is redeemable if genuinely reconciled to God. Ultimately, God is the singular judge. The difference between Yahweh, and all others, is that Yahweh is discoverable and always present and available. Put your prejudice aside, and make the scientific effort to isolate and identify the presence of God. Blindly dismissing the concept of a creator, and insulting billions of humans is hardly a scientifically reasoned approach to this conundrum.

@Facci Why is the burden of proving the existence of a well described god on the shoulders of those that reject it? Where did this concept of God so clearly articulated originate from? How is the origin source authenticated?

Also, if God has no beginning and no end, why is such an all powerful god judging silly humans for their deeds? If god gave humans free-will, why is he so brutal in punishing the same humans for exercising their free-will? The concept of free-will at this point becomes really muddy merely by the source of its origin.

I have no prejudice sir. Seems like the prejudice is buried deep and strong within those that blindly believe whatever a book says without putting reason and rationality into practice to question the words written in an ancient book. The book mandates humans to be afraid of the all powerful god. Religions of the ancient times were built upon fear more than anything else. It is this eternal fear that captivates so many religious people's imaginations and therefore restricts them from actually experiencing the world from the perspective of a rational being.

@Facci I believe it was "Contact" that raised the argument... 98% of the world's population believe in some form of intelligent design. To write off all religeons would essentially be calling everyone on the planet insane.

That being said, I think there needs to be a massive revision of what is perceived by faith. The Christian "faith" is so fragmented by people who think theirs is the only version of the bible that is accurate causes the message to be lost.

I believe Peterson has a very close-to-true way of looking at the stories presented in the bible, their reasoning, and the lessons they can offer to better help us as individuals and as society. Not only that but he makes more sense than any pastor/bishop/imam/priest I've ever heard try to explain the "why" behind all of this we call life. But Sam Harris's points are just as valid, because if you can look at humanity and remove the necessity of faith for society there's nothing saying we couldn't become even stronger as a species. It feels like religion has become it's own worst enemy in how fragmented it's become among the tribes. The tribes of faith aren't even warring anymore, they just figure the other people are wrong and going to hell and move on.

NONE of that is what was preached by Jesus's words or actions, nor was it the intent of Abraham and the children of god to be dominant over every other belief out there.

@ConsciousBeing you are not mandated at all. Those who believe in and know God have no need.to prove anything to anyone. You questioned faith in God, and I explained it. I don't know what you mean by severe punishment. There is life and there is death. The source of life encourages life eternally, deviating from life will lead to death. You must know from you knowledge of science that nothing simply disappears from the universe. Organic materials decay and are ingested by organisms and interact with the environment. Life is eternal, as is God.

@ConsciousBeing, @SpaceWillie2000 Sam Harris is wrong because there is no evidence of morality outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

@Facci Where is the evidence of morality within the Abrahamic tradition?

@Facci One's knowledge of God is experiential and I agree with that. This kind of God cannot be proven but then again this God is the absolute. This God is beyond all silly rationalizations we humans make. Therefore, this omnipresent all-encompassing force or entity or energy or God does not fit itself within the narratives of ancient world religions. This God is entirely outside of the domain of language and therefore human reason.

Attempting to define this all powerful entity results in the world religions. No one religion is truer nor greater!

@ConsciousBeing the 10 Commandments are the source of morality and liberty in the world. No one is intelligent enough to disprove the origin of his life and all of existence.

@Facci Have you read about the religions of the east? Any idea about the principles that Buddhists follow? Why do you think morality does not lie in Buddhist teachings or any other religion in Africa?

You are intelligent enough to know what you are claiming is not even close to truth.

@ConsciousBeing Because these cultures did not liberate their practitioners, or contribute to the health and well being of most of the people they have encountered. They have often relied on the good will of Christian cultures to buttress their existence and quality of life.

@Facci Liberation has an entirely different meaning in the eastern world. The idea of ultimate liberation is the one from the constraints of this body we are bound with. The eastern religions or traditions have mostly emphasized on this kind of liberation.
Please rethink your idea that the western civilization liberated the people of the world. The people of the world were happily living their lives if not for the colonial intervention of the European empires. It did more harm than good.
Definitely, the western civilization liberated itself but not the world.
Read more about moksha and nirvana perhaps if you think western empires liberated the eastern civilization.

If you ask me, I would say the western empires searched for liberation and spices which made them sail to India in the first place.

@Facci I can grant you one thing though. Industrial revolution definitely brought increased wealth and well-being (to some degree) to large groups of people. This spread around the world. This has nothing to do with Christian faith which was against scientific progress.
Science flourished in the western world leading to wide-spread well-being but spirituality flourished in the eastern world leading to mental clarity. I think the time is ripe now for the merging of science and spirituality that is devoid of angels or magical humans up in the sky.

@ConsciousBeing there are no magical humans but there is a God. Science dates back thousands of years, but the Industrial Revolution was created by Western Civilisation by science set in motion by Christianity. Astronomy, Enlightenment, Abolition, Natural Law, Liberty, Republicanism, and Capitalism are specific by-products of Christian culture.

@Facci Oh I think there is a lot of ignorance here. Eastern civilizations had far reaching insights about astronomy, had republic way of administration, even Rome was a republic and that was before Christ. Please substantiate your claims with valid proofs and arguments. The world had researched about the stars, planets, sun, consciousness, meaning, philosophy, arts and means of trade and economics much before Christ was even born.
What you hold is merely a redundant belief that can easily be wiped out with new knowledge about the world.

@ConsciousBeing you presume the happiness of others due to your priviliedge of the comforts of Western Civilisation. Christianity is all about the liberty of the spiritual body from the material world. This is the significance of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. We are all spiritual beings. I see that you do acknowledge the mystical faith of eastern cultures.

@Facci My acknowledgement of the mythology in the eastern cultures only proves the point that no the world is composed of several different religions, mythology and traditions. No one religion among them is true nor superior. No one tradition takes dominance than the other.

There are several religions and practices around the world that aims to achieve ultimate liberation. However, I do not see modern humans achieving the ultimate liberation in any manner. But humanity as a species is heading in that direction of liberation but it will only happen with a collective, representative set of philosophy and not a exclusionary set of beliefs such as the ancient world religions.

Let us look beyond our belief horizons and see that there is a bright new world where peaceful co-existence is possible. Once this world is seen, I am sure people will relinquish their blind hold they have on their blind beliefs based on the religions they practice.

The truth exists for anyone who seeks it. Anyone who seeks the truth will tread the path. The path doesn't matter but the truth does. The path is religion/science/spirituality/philosophy/art and truth is the god. If we focus on god, we don't have to squabble about whose path is superior or better.

@ConsciousBeing, your belief is that your vision of the future is best and that everyone should agree with you. Fair enough, but if truth is a god, then God is truth, and that is what is called logic and reason.

@Facci Sorry which god are you talking about though? If your definition of god is bound by Bible, then perhaps another god could be referred to as the true god. And another and another and so it goes.

True god is only experienced and religion is not a requirement to experience this god.

@ConsciousBeing there's only one God and only one truth. They are the same. My name for that God is Yahweh.

@Facci How about the god that existed before Yahweh? The god that Yahweh defeated to become the only supreme being? Yahweh actually means a warrior god - a god who commanded the heavenly armies to kill those that detracted.

Here is a brief history of origins of Yahweh. In the oldest biblical literature, Yahweh is a typical ancient Near Eastern "divine warrior", who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies;[8] he later became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[9] and over time the royal court and temple promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[10][11] By the end of the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the true god of all the world.

[8] [books.google.ca]

[9] [books.google.ca]

[10] [books.google.ca]

[11] [books.google.ca]

My point is that, the god you claim to be the only truth has his own origins and evolution. This god evolved through stories and mythology. There are several such gods around the world. If such a god has to be proclaimed as the only truth, then there are several such 'only true gods' across the world. How do we reconcile this diversity? Which god is the real truthful god?

@ConsciousBeing Copernicus was a priest. Isaac Newton, and Charles Darwin are Christians. Thriving Republics like Great Britain, the Netherlands, France, multicultural Republics such as the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania, and the United States were created and have thrived in the Christian world. Rome was a dictatorship, not a representative republic as was developed in Europe after the Magna Carta granted sovereignty to the common man. Christianity was the greatest influence on the world of science in all of history. I have not stated a single falsehood. You have not disproven God. No God had existed before Yahweh.

@ConsciousBeing Yahweh translates as "I am that I am." As Dr. Peterson explains, man has evolved to discover Him.

@ConsciousBeing "The truth exists for anyone who seeks it. Anyone who seeks the truth will tread the path. The path doesn't matter but the truth does. The path is religion/science/spirituality/philosophy/art and truth is the god. If we focus on god, we don't have to squabble about whose path is superior or better.". We are actually in agreement. Yahweh is the truth, and The Bible is the path as far as I can tell. Though you give other gods and your faith the benefit of the doubt, you are opposed to mine. I welcome you to find your path where ever you shall seek. I have found mine. This is what you've questioned me about and I have answered thoroughly and honestly. My God honors your free will. Through out Scripture he has commanded that non believers not be disrespected. You've seen my pearls, and I'm done with this particular conversation. God bless you, and yours.

@Facci Great points.

"Yahweh is the truth, and The Bible is the path as far as I can tell." The key phrase is 'as far as I can tell'. That is where religions stop. It stops with individual interpretation. The truth is diluted and morphed because of individual interpretation of the scriptures.

I am opposed to any religion that claims to be the truth. This claim absolutely takes away the 'truth' from Yahweh (if you may) to Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I can agree (to an extent) that Christianity is a great social system that promoted flourishing of individual humans but it has nothing to do with Yahweh. It has everything to do with those that interpreted the scriptures in a way to make it work for them instead of against them.

I am not inciting you to talk more here. I am just saying what I feel has to be said. One can believe in whatever one wants but to claim that to be universal truth for all is taking it a bit too far.

@Facci I truly enjoyed the conversation and would love to speak more. Thanks for indulging. Appreciate that! Wishing you wonderful days ahead.

That's a good way to put it! I agree. I am often torn between these two when I listen to them discuss issues. However, in the end, my mind aligns itself with Sam Harris's views as they are more universal in vision and inclusive in nature.

Reason behind the choice?

Being bored is not a sign of lack of reason. It is perhaps a sign of disinterest on the listener's part that has nothing to do with the speaker's intelligence or rationality.

It sounds like you are a person who is anti-religious and you’re letting that impact on your opinion of Peterson and that is normal because we all allow our worldview and perspectives to influence our opinions. When Harris talks about rationality, whose rationality is he referring to? His, Stalin’s, the Taliban‘s? I never heard of a universal rationality.

@Clammypollack Rationality is subjective but if the rationality is not flexible upon new information from around the world, then it is not really rational, is it?

When one cannot remove oneself form one's firmly held beliefs and actually look at the world from the perspective of a million others, then one has failed to acknowledge that such perspectives exist and profoundly impacts everyone else in a subtle or a direct manner.

When one claims to somehow be superior to another based on firmly held mythological beliefs, one excludes another with a different mythological belief. All we have then are groups of people with diverging mythological beliefs who when come in contact result in friction and violence. This is history. This is what the world is continuing to witness but it is changing rapidly.

The arrival of internet, social media, wide spread scientific methodology and open communication has resulted in the breakdown of several barriers that existed earlier which prevented understanding of one another. Science is reason's utility. And with this tool, we can understand the cosmos better than how religions describe it.

I am not against religion, I am absolutely against the truth that religions of the world claim to possess. I do agree that there could be this one absolute truth (god) but I cannot agree that the pathways to reach this truth are inherently true. Religion and science does the same really. They point to the truth. However neither are true in themselves. One can use whichever path one wants or feels is easier but one cannot claim their path is the absolute truth. Those who claim that are clueless about what truth really is.