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Equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. My preferences are clearly the fomer. However this is easy to say - but I do wonder whether western societies have equality of opportunity when there is such economic and social divergency... so do these 2 concepts collapse into each other? Appreciate your thoughts - I am very unclear on my thinking

Bargeman 3 Feb 15
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It is my opinion that equality of opportunity has been well addressed and guaranteed on the legal front. But there is no question that for many it is much more difficult than others. I do not believe that this is something that will ever be fixed by federal or state government. It must be addressed on a local level. It starts with family, community and education. City or county government is closer to the problems and better suited to effect change. Still, Any real progress requires commitment at the grass roots level. Family, extended family, friends and neighbors working together to raise children to have a better life. Education, hard work and delayed gratification, along with not having children until you are ready makes at least middle class life attainable for anyone. They just have to learn this before they make choices that will hold them back. It really does start at home.

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I think where I get to is that equality of opportunity is what we strive for - but very hard in practice. Therefore there needs to be some government intervention to remove inequalities, eg in $, education, etc. We have to be honest that wealth and education improve your opportunities.

The issue is that it becomes a balance between those wanting to minimise government intervention (ie freedom for the individual) and those wanting to maximise equality. This leads to your classic left - right split. I think this is what Yuval Noah Hararin was saying in Sapiens that our society is a battle between the competing ideas of freedom and equality (apologies if poorly paraphrased).

Pragmatically, I think you end up with liberally democracy trying to balance the competing demands. However, what we are seeing now - possibly because of social media - is that each side is getting louder and more intolerant of the other. This is simplistic I know - but seems right. The only way to resolve this is some sort of compromise in the centre (where I sit) - but this seems to keep no one happy...

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Far be it for people to take responsibility for their own lives . Much easier to blame society than to pull yourself out of the spot you're in . "clean up your room and stand up straight".

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The answer is definitely no IMO. We are far as a society from equality of opportunity. The racism and mysogeny in this country is real and it affects all of us.

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I'm all for equal opportunities and against equal outcomes. People are born with different strengths and abilities and INJUSTICE will need to happen before equal outcome takes place. The "social justice" and "equity" the left are pushing out is the expectation of equal outcome and that's injustice disguised in the name of social justice imho. As a minority woman and immigrant, I believe US has largely achieved equal opportunities.

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Yes, there is never going to be true equality of opportunity. Everyone is dealt a different hand when it comes to genetics and environment they are raised in.

The goal should try to create as even as reasonably possible an environmental playing field by providing good schools for all. I don't see a problem in having socio-economic factors play a factor in college admissions because some kids will be underserved based upon their local schools or say having to have a part time job while others didn't and could devote all their time to study or other activities in high school.

But we should also remember a completely merit based system assuming there was a completing level playing field will result in huge disparties in results based upon genetics and that is what Charles Murray real concern was about. In today's world if someone has a big genetic advantage coupled with being being conscious, hard working, and self motivated that person is going to increase their chances to be much more wealthy than in the past when everyone was on a farm. The genetically gifted hard working person these days can create some new app or other technolgy that everyone wants and can make millions.

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Same here, I'd go with the former. I don't think they collapse into each other, as the latter could depend upon individual choices made.

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