True, but in that case it was the Russian side who was lying.

@SpikeTalon Yes, I can recognize the Russians' lies. I can also recognize the CIA/MI6 lies coming out of Ukraine. My worry is that people, no matter what side they're on, will not recognize that their team is lying. Then we have a false perception of reality on both sides and no one will be able to retain their own sanity.

@FuzzyMarineVet I too recognize both sides there lie, but it cannot be denied that Russia's actions back in February were aggressive, which is why it seems I go a little harder on Russia than Ukraine, and especially knowing the Kremlin's history of spreading propaganda. So while both sides lie and exaggerate some claims, one side is still lying more than the other, and I don't think it's Ukraine who's lying more. That, and the fact for some odd reasons those who are in more agreement with the Russian side of that conflict have displayed a rather anti-American sentiment, which reminds me of a leftwing progressive hateful mentality.

@SpikeTalon It seems to me that NATO was acting aggressive, if not in a kinetic way, back in 2021 when they began talks with Ukraine for admission into the alliance and the EU. How would you feel if the PRC annexed Canada? Remember that NATO lost is reason for existence when the USSR dissolved. Bill Clinton denied Russia admission to NATO because, "NATO needs an enemy." So while Russia is guilty of starting the actual kinetic conflict, its roots run through Brussels and the Pentagon.

@FuzzyMarineVet How would you feel if Russia entered the scene and annexed Crimea, which is precisely what they did back in 2014, some seven or so years before NATO's perceived aggression over talks with Ukraine welcoming them into an alliance with the EU? Ukraine is an independent country and reserves the right to make its own decisions despite what Russia may think or believe on that matter. Annexation like that is always wrong.

As for the claim that NATO lost its reason for existing once the Soviet Union dissolved, that's not accurate. NATO was designed to be a system of collective mutually agreed upon security, and while they did serve as a check on the threat from the Soviet Union, it pays to keep in mind that presently speaking Putin's Russia is not the only threat to peace, numerous other sponsors of terrorism out there. Whoever said Bill Clinton was right for saying that?? Sounds like a typical loudmouth Democrat there talking out of his posterior, and that surely doesn't speak for the rest of us. The Russia/Ukraine conflict goes back to before NATO was even created, and while the Pentagon does play a curious role in all of that it would hardly be all the Pentagon's fault for what is going on today in Ukraine. So NATO's move in 2021 was alot due in part to acts of aggression from Russia dating back to 2014, and as the saying goes for every action there is a reaction. Also, given the bragging from Putin that his country is big and powerful with a solid nuclear arsenal etc, I don't believe his claim that Ukraine wanting to join NATO was the serious threat to Russia's security as we are led to believe it was. Either that, or Russia never was that powerful of a nation to begin with, but it can't be both of those though.

@SpikeTalon You're correct about the history of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The actions of the ethic Russians during Stalin's Hollidamor really stoked the animosity. When the Ukrainian Kulacks were murdered by the Russian Bolsheviks any chance of ethnic reconciliation was exfenestrated. The sad part is the origin of the Russian people is in Kiev.