@Cgraus LMAO!!!! LMAO!!!!! LMAO!!!!!, REALY????????

First off, non-citizens are not going to vote in federal elections--it's against federal law.

And as I put it in my comment on another post:

There weren't immigration laws until the Chinese Exclusion Act and other similarly racist legislation in the late 1800s, ironically just as the Statue of Liberty was being dedicated. Originally, citizenship belonged to any free white man who has lived here for two years. But even then, all free persons and 3/5 of other persons (i.e., slaves) were included in the Census in keeping with Article One of the Constitution.

Here's what the Declaration of Independence says on the matter: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Here's what the 14th Amendment says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed."

As for voting, non-citizens weren't barred from voting in federal elections until the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. I think the fact that a right to vote is not made explicit in the Bill of Rights has made it easier to infringe. So too perhaps has the use of the word "citizens" in the aforementioned 14th Amendment, and the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th.

@WilyRickWiles Only legal aliens can vote in U.S. elections . U.S. citizens are imported statutory persons , alien in the state they legally reside in . They are not Americans . Illegals have a problem because they haven't sold themselves to the Federal corporation .

@WilyRickWiles ; please apply your constitutional parameters to affirmative action, reparations, set-asides for special groups, hate crime legislation! (https://scontent.fagc3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66065191_2648626185195723_240186326517809152_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQnC3l8JO6YHxcfqd3y9TCSe-yzpTkGm_ZAaEehWx-KWwITwD_vBX_z7f_gu3GIjIX4&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc3-1.fna&oh=b1bbec67dee040a437dfeec4b4f9e615&oe=5DAD3F9E)

@WilyRickWiles Your first sentence? They broke the law to get here, obviously they don't care about our laws. They will do what is best for them, not us!

@Serg97 No they didn't necessarily break the law to get here. Moreover, they can't register to vote and there is no meaningful evidence that they are committing voter fraud. Just because it "feels true" does not make it so.

@Segovia Say what (also, not clicking on that)?

@WilyRickWiles Rick, have you looked up the meaning og "Illegal"?
If Illegals had respect for our laws, they would not be here!!!!!!
They are here because it is a benefit to them!!!!
They will vote, illegally, for the person who offers them the most benefits!!!!
They don't give a SH-T about our laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does this explain the problem so you can understand it?????????

@Serg97 No, I think it's you who doesn't understand the issue. Our laws don't run on nativist "common sense."

@WilyRickWiles I understand that there is little "common sense" in your arguments!!!!!

@Serg97 I prefer rational thinking to using "my gut." We all know where you stand. Take it from Dr. Peterson. [slug.com]

@WilyRickWiles Here is a rational thought. Why don't we use the same background check for voters as we do for people buying guns?????
If we did, we would weed out non-citizens, convicted felons, wife beaters, druggies, crazies, etc. If they pass the the background check they get a VOTER I/D!!!
Wouldn't that take care of voter fraud??????

@Serg97 What voter fraud?

@WilyRickWiles You can't be serious!!!!!!!!! Have you ever seen "The Walking Dead"???? LOL

@Serg97 Also [en.wikipedia.org]

@Serg97 Might want to read up on this too: [en.wikipedia.org]

@wilyrickwiles you might want to check the state by state list of voter fraud! It is apparent that you will not accept the obvious or the facts, so our discussion is at an end!

@Serg97 Thank god.

@WilyRickWiles I didn't know you believed in HIM!!!!!

@Cgraus I never said I had a problem with any one that wants to work and support themselves and their families. I do have a problem with people, from anywhere, that want others to provide for them!!!!
If you are not a citizen,you are not protected by the constitution, you are only owed basic human protections, but not the right to vote, carry a gun, and only limited free speech, etc.
If we OUTLAWED WELFARE, this would not even be a point of discussion!!!!!!!!

@Serg97 on background checks for voting - there's a long history (mostly in the South after the Civil War) where if you give the government the ability to screen out voters, they abuse that power. So all citizens get a vote is probably the safest approach.

@damo9f I don't recall saying anything about not letting citizens vote.
I did say that anyone that could NOT PAST the same BACKGROUND CHECK that is required to purchase a firearm, should not vote!!!!!!

@Serg97 that's the same thing. If they are not citizens they already can't vote. By adding some rules the government gets to block citizens from voting.

@damo9f How do you determine who is and who is not a citizen????
If there is no test of citizenship, there is no way of knowing who is votings.
Do you want convicted child molsters/ murders/ drug dealers/ etc. determining who represents you????
All of the above are citizens!!!!!!
And some of them are not citizens in our country because of sanctuary, cities/ counties/ and states.
If they are not identified, how do we know they are NOT voting??????

@Serg97 Its about what checks and balances there are for the government to suppress voting.

Read up on poll taxes and voter suppression of blacks in the old south. We learned not to allow those kinds of things.

@damo9f The original question in this discussion was about non-citizens being counted in the census. Most of the comments are related to voting, and how much representation a district should have and how much in federal/state funds should the district get.
IMHO non-citizen should not vote nor receive any government funding or any rights enumerated by the Constitution,until they become citizens!!!!!! This has nothing to do with the DEMs treatment of non-white throughout our history. Remember, it took a REPUBLICAN tTO FREE THE SLAVES!!!!!!!!!

@Serg97 Non-citizens are absolutely counted. Article II of the Constitution requires a census of:

" ... their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. "

There are plenty of things, like voting, restricted to citizens, but allocating representatives to the states and how to do the census is for counting all "free persons."

Separately, the Census is used for things like traffic planning, road construction, hospital capacity, schools etc. which is about the actual physical people so that facilities are not overwhelmed.

This does NOT mean that non-citizens get any direct benefits. It's just the requirement is to count everyone.

@damo9f But if you cannot ask if they are citizens, how do you determine how many votes should come from a given district. Therefore, you cannot determine if non-citizens are voting or collecting tax payers money!!!!!!!
I understand that you believe anyone who can get to the USA, by whatever means, should be able to enjoy all of the benefits, right???????

@Serg97 Subtle difference. Votes for an area are apportioned based on people in the state, even including non-voters (children, people in prisons, legal and illegal non-citizen residents).

Then only adult citizens actually get to vote.

It's weird, but if a state opens a bunch of for-profit prisons, they get more representatives! Even though you can't vote in prison, those people are there, so they are part of the census.

@damo9f Agreed, not only weird,but wrong!!!!! In so many ways!!!!! But, you still did not answer my question!

@Serg97 Ah. I think this discussion is about the census and adding a question that they know will depress the count, because they think they can get more districts that way.

But in terms of enforcing that only people vote who are allowed to - citizens and non-felons in states that ban felons, and over 18.... Not sure, but I'm sure there's some process when people register to vote to be sure they are real and valid.

@damo9f I said earlier, the back ground check used to purchase a firearm would be a good start!!!
And it is already in use. Yes, we would have to hire some more people, at least at first, maybe part time, to get this off the ground, but it is proven (not perfect) and already available. At least until a better idea comes up.

@Serg97 Seems like we are going in a circle here. Do you see the conflict of interest in politicians passing laws to decide who gets to vote?

@damo9f I see the possibility of a conflict of interest, but under our way of governing, who else would pass laws re: anything?????
I have supported Term Limits on more than a few post. That maybe the answer to your concerns, but again who is going to pass a Term Limit Law??????

@WilyRickWiles This is informative as hell. Thank you.

My personal belief on the whole thing is that we just need to make getting to full blown citizenship faster and easier.

There is no reason that it should take 10 years. It may not in all cases but someone I work with just finally got his citizenship last year even though he has been in the us since he was 10 and turn 28 recently.

I do not understand how citizenship takes that long or why you ever would need it to.

@WilyRickWiles the key phrase in the 14th Amendment is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"... they're not U.S. citizens or State citizens, they're citizens of some foreign country. (see U.S. v Wong Kim Ark, 1898 )

@rway Not sure what your point is, but please see the "all persons" part and the rest of the nuances discussed here.

@WilyRickWiles just clarifying... I don't know what you were saying by pasting the text, but most people read the 14th as a declaration that anyone born on U.S. soil is a U.S. Citizen (see: Anchor Baby); which is not the case.

"All persons" should not be used to establish representation in the federal Congress. If you're going to count everybody for other reasons, then you need a way to track which are non-citizens and leave them out of the tally for U.S. Representatives. If that question deters them from responding at all, that's their choice.

@rway I don't think you read everything I posted. And you have a Peculiar interpretation of the Constitution.

@WilyRickWiles what interpretation are you having trouble with?

Don't believe the population of people here illegally is high enough or spread wide enough to push more than 1-2 states in a single direction.