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Glib political statements that are essentially bumper sticker type slogans annoy me. Recently the "socialist snowplow" memes got on my nerves and left me thinking deeply about the distinction between having say a county road and bridge department and say some big socialist program such as universal basic income or free housing for instance. I know there is a good argument for a distinction based on degree and effectiveness. Local vs national control, overall need vs. benefiting a specific class, etc. But I am having a hard time making a distinction on type. Is having a road and bridge Dept actually socialism? Which led me to ask is it socialism every time we are taxed and the government spends it? I know there is a utilitarian argument to be had every time tax money is used but I am more interested in a conversation regarding type of tax money use. Is it socialism if we all have equal shares in the benefit, such as police, fire, EMS, road and bridge, versus taxing people to give services to people who can't afford a service that is readily available in the market already? Any thoughts on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Again, type, not degree or usefulness. Thank you.

Ldsrabbi 5 Mar 16
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Long topic ... I’ll try to make it short ...
When a Community decides an item must be built or asset must be purchased for the benefit of those who are paying for it, this is Commerce/Capitalism They are agreeing to do this for their own specific “betterment”. While they probably know there are those who will benefit that do NOT pay for it, they are willing to bear the cost of those “Free Riders”.
For instance ... people generally look at trucks as being a problem ... as “inconvenient” ... however, MOST of those people are “Free Riders” since the Trucks and Businesses are the REASON that roads exist at all ... COMMERCE Created Roads and Bridges and Super Highways AND ... Mostly PAID for them. The roads WERE NOT built so You could Go See Grandma ... were that the case, there would BE NO Roads. Snowplows are Commerce/Capitalism.
When SOME Aspect of a Community decides it should use Tax Money to support “Free Riders” instead of, or over, Commerce ... THAT is Socialism ...
For instance ... back to Roads ... in many instances Gated Communities and Developments are REQUIRED to build, maintain and plow Their Own Roads because they are NOT Commerce. However, if that small community falls on hard times and can no longer afford to plow its own roads ... frequently a Government Official will decide the Larger Community (Municipality) SHOULD Plow those roads ... to PAY Tax Monies for something that is NOT Legitimately something it should be used for.
Section 8 Housing, Rent Controls, WIC ... these are all forms of “Anti Commerce” expenditures of Tax Income (Commerce Produced Monies) ...
Whenever Tax Money (all money is produced by Commerce) is spent on something that IS NOT Commerce Oriented ... that may, in fact, be ANTI Commerce ... THAT is “Socialism”.
Police, Fire, EMS, Road and Bridge, Schools ... these are all PRO Commerce ... they allow the Community to function ... to Work.
Social Security (Insurance), MediCare (part of SSI), Unemployment (Insurance), Disability (Insurance) are often acted toward as though they were Charity though they are NOT ... They were PAID FOR (Commerce) by the recipients.
MedicAid, Welfare, Food Stamps, ... “Free Services” ... these are ALL things being provided to a “Free Rider” from Monies Created by Commerce ... these are Socialistic.

You do have a good grip on the structure of society . My response is that Commerce is more about power than currency . Richard Nixon stated his priority and preference .

@Georgesblogforum
Thanks.
I use “money” as it is familiar to most people. Of course I mean “currency” which is not truthfully “money” but it is an item of “exchange”.
Power too is a “currency” though most people have none ... or very little of intrinsic value ... and little hope of getting any.
Similarly, “Carbon Credits” are a “currency” ... an item of exchange ... where most people have none ... and little hope of getting any.

@Bay0Wulf The quickest way to become wealthy is to invent a new currency , out of thin air . In legal terminology , the Federal Reserve Note is a "Work d'Art" . When I was homeless , I picked up fancy things that I found in the street . People called it and gave me real things for it .

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Where I'm from those snow plows and their drivers are all government owned and unionised
Over paid lazy half a$$ing platinum pension self entitled far left sketchy contract awards dirt bags.
So yes..here it is socialism..

Hmmm ...
If it snows are the roads plowed?
Are you a “Commercial Driver”? Do you hold a CDL License?
Do you drive a truck?

If not then those Snow Plows, those Roads, AREN’T There for YOU.
That Road and Those Plows are so Commerce can happen ... not so YOU can go see grandma ... or even get to work ... YOU are simply an incidental ...
You’re simply another “Free Rider” using ... and expecting a benefit ... from something YOU AREN’T PAYING FOR ...

So ... yeah ... YOU Benefit for FREE ... Commerce is agreeing to PAY for YOUR USE ... That’s still Commerce/Capitalism.
Think on that for a bit ...

@Bay0Wulf we had roads for commerce before we had income taxes and government unions.
Who's driving without a job our gas taxes, tire taxes etc in their vehicle?
Where do you think I haven't paid taxes?
Where do you think that road hasn't been paid for 10x over++...
Today's maintenance rates charged to government are fraudulent to be gentle.
My grandparents paid for those roads to be built and nearly nothing since..
So yes..it's socialism.
No they're not private companies and technically not even private individuals thanks to the government unions..
It's long ago private companies bid for these contacts between other private industry jobs..
.
But that is no longer the case and hasn't been for 30 years here in Canada

@Kazzxtrismus
I can’t answer for Canada. Maybe you guys DID build them so you could go see grandma ... not likely but maybe.
Here in the USA, Trucking and Commerce pays by far the lion’s share ... by far ... in fact, before income taxes the US Government was funded mostly by Commerce and Trade taxes ONLY ... The States used similar taxes ...
Here in the US there are many taxes which are used to pay for specific things ... specifically Roads and Bridges ... in fact, the taxes gathered for this are so plentiful that the Federal and State Governments have been all too happy to use those monies for things NOT related to the roads ... like Pennsylvania covers the State Police out of those funds while New York uses them for bicycle paths ...
INCOME TAXES pay for Other Things but NOT “Roads and Bridges” ... NOT Commerce Driven Items ...

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I read "socialist snow plow" and i imagine a guy sitting behind the wheel of his truck at 330 in the morning cussing every "snowflake" that landed on his "windshield" wondering when the "blizzard" would end.

0

"Is it socialism every time we are taxed and the government spends it?"

In my view, the more a system is paid for by taxes on those who use it, the less "socialist" it is.

Roads are often supported by gasoline taxes or by property taxes (depending on the State). Police and EMS are often supported by sales or property taxes levied by the city. In these cases, the individuals who use the road (drivers) or benefit from the road (property owners) have to pay for more of it. The individuals who live in the city (and use city services) have to pay more for them. Ideally, we don't all have equal shares; instead those who are going to use the system are taxed to support the system. These taxpayers are better able to hold the local government accountable.

Gas and property taxes for roads are not socialist because fundamentally, they're not wealth transfer strategies.

Note: The US constitution specifically authorizes the Federal government to establish "Post Offices and post Roads". At least some road building is authorized at the Federal level.

I like what you said about wealth transfer strategies. It is a good distinction. What I meant by equal share is that if a person pays property taxes (and yes renters pay property taxes because it is generally figured into the rent) those taxes go to roads and fire etc. and therefore we all use them or they are there to protect us all. So I still like the equal share argument, even if it isn't perfect, it is a good descriptor. I am open to a more precise definition of what I am trying to describe. But the wealth transfer stategy is a good way to describe the second part of my point about UBI or free housing.

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I too have questioned if the example you mentioned above is indeed socialism, or would fall under another category. I believe some of the same was around during the times of the founding fathers, and I rather doubt they would have referred to such as socialism...

Or whatever word was being used in the late 18th century to describe use of tax money. I might be wrong, but I thought the term socialism didn't come into existence until mid 19th century, but either way, I am sure these discussions have been had ever since mankind has created societies and started taking money from people to fund official societial functions.

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