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I wanted to talk about transgender people for a moment. I am pro trans rights, in that I think trans people deserve to dress and identify as they wish, as long as it is a committed lifestyle and identity, and not a trend. I don't actually think most people who are seeking to medically transition are "transtrenders". Most are committed to transitioning because they don't feel like staying in their current body is a viable option for them, or that they'll likely spend their time depressed and possibly suicidal if they do not transition. Whether you think its a mental illness or not, I have no problem with trans people transitioning. They do them. We should all be able to have surgeries and change our appearance because in the end, we're all autonomous beings.

I will call trans women "she" and trans men "he" if they wish. I balk at things like "Zhe" and "Zher" and am hoping that those terms are swallowed up by iniquity rather than that they make their way into our normal lexicon of gender terminology. But hey, if you do the work of shaving your legs and growing your hair out and dressing like a woman every day, and you want me to call you "she" and "her", I'm fine with that. But that's because I choose to respect your gender pronouns. Expecting everyone to automatically call you by the pronouns you want to be referred by is naive. Compelling it by law is outright horrifying as a violation of free speech. Also, making it illegal to misgender someone doesn't help your cause. It only breeds resentment and hate.

I feel like there are concurrent issues going on here. Transgender people's rights to live as the gender they identify with in peace without harassment and violent retribution, and transgender people demanding to be treated exactly the same as cis gender (or non trans, or biologically male/female) people. And the assumption that it is bigotry and hatred that fuel concerns about say.. who uses what bathroom.. who's allowed into what changing room, or whether a trans person should disclose their trans status before having sex with a non-trans person. These are all rational issues that can be debated in a rational manner. Believing that transgender people are mentally ill is perfectly reasonable. Mocking them as deluded psychopaths, or mocking their appearance is less than fair. I have several transgender friends who don't differ from non trans people in any sort of noticeable way other than that they are dressing as the opposite gender. They aren't "mentally ill" outside of the belief that they are the opposite gender they were born into.

I was incredibly impressed with the interview between Blaire White (a conservative trans woman) and Ben Shapiro, in which they came together for a polite conversation about pronoun usage. I feel that if we calm down and address this issue factually, we'll get farther than the alternative - Trans people claiming that any and all criticism of their identity is blatant bigotry and not based in reasonable concerns/ Non-trans people mocking trans people as disgusting monsters or delusional gay men with mean abandon.

I'd appreciate some measured, non emotional responses to this post as to where we should go next. Any thoughts?

Fayerweather 4 Apr 2

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Honestly, I don’t care what they look like or what their sex is as long as they are not an asshole to me and I don’t have to pay for their surgery with my taxes. If I have to pay for my own boob job so should they. I do have a problem with the cutting up of healthy genitalia though because the risk of never having an orgasm again would be a real possibility and would be permanent not to meantion the urethral damage that can happen. I also don’t care if they want me to call them something different as long as they don’t get rude if I make a mistake. Hell people name their kids weird shit with weird spellings and then get mad if you spell it wrong or say it wrong. People need to stop getting butt hurt over everything and just get on with living their lives.


I think ... in this country (the USofA) that they have the “Right” to do and request whatever they want ... Just the Same as ALL the Rest of Us.

PROVIDED ... they don’t try to impose on MY Rights ... Demand “Special” Rights ... or Require Myself OR the Taxpayer to Foot the Bill.

I completely agree. You have a right to dress as the opposite gender and live as the opposite gender. But when it comes to you entering private spaces where people may not want you to be, or if you want to make me call you by pronouns I don't want to call you by, you are impinging on my personal rights. Or if you want to tell my child that gender is a construct in the classroom and so forth

Yeah ... that “telling” or “teaching” children that they might be interested in being or acting as another gender ... is a bit more than I am willing to tolerate as someone’s (the teacher’s?) “Assumed Right”.


Trans people have the same rights as anyone else and no others. I'm a man but, if someone wants to call me she, I can't stop them. I just get to think they're a prick. The same applies to trans people.

I'll be honest, I don't give a rip if someone wants to surgically alter themselves to resemble another gender. However, IMO a man surgically altered to resemble a woman remains a surgically altered man. Nor has a man ever given birth despite what some news stories say, If they want me to call them he or she, I probably will but, that remains my decision. I won't use any of those freaky pronouns that are out there or they. It wouldn't occur to me to mock them in any other fashion.

Despite all the arguments to the contrary, the suicide rate among trans people indicates that for many the alteration isn't a good solution to their problem and there may not be one. It's not reasonable to attribute a 40% suicide rate simply to non-acceptance. There's another problem.

This subject needs a lot more study. The step to trans needs to be taken much more carefully than it is now especially with minors. Unfortunately this is a politically charged subject and any study that comes up with a different answer is not likely to be accepted.

On deeper research, and learning from those who have been transgender for more than 40 years... the suicide rate is indeed higher and according to these seasoned transgenders, this is because of the anger and quilt that their parents agreed with them as children ... now that mother nature and their chromosomes and genes have defeated the artificial hormones... or the regret of sexual transformation surgeries, as well as rejection from the natural opposite ... are the true cause of their suicides.

@KebblerFox While that is the stated reason, I'm not so sure. That suicide rate is outrageous. It's higher than the suicide rate among the incarcerated. That indicates some serious psychological issues. Please don't think I'm saying the gender change is the cause because I don't think it is. I'm suggesting that there is an underlying condition of which the desire to change gender is one possible symptom. I'm also not saying that's an issue with all trans people.

One possibility that comes to mind is a person that doesn't like themselves to begin with. Perhaps they even think they deserve to die. Changing gender could look like erasing themselves in a way. The problem is they remain the same person with the same memories and they still don't like themselves.

In the above example the person was probably headed towards suicide regardless of the surgery. The transition in the above case could be considered an act of desperation. I don't know that this is what happens, that suicide rate could have other causes but, this merits more study and gender change should approached with the utmost caution.

Is the deliberate removal of one’s self from this thing we call “Life” a bad thing?

@Bay0Wulf not only is it a bad thing, but you are allowing the strengthening challenges of your life to defeat you. You are bullying yourself into non-existence. As very difficult as it may seem, these challenges must be broken down into their individual components so you can really see what is truly going on within you. Are these challenges even valid..? Are they someone else's projections of their failure onto you, and they would be completely removed from your life, should you realize..? Often, we make choices about our lives that we regret... others cause us to regret our choices. But the true fact is, nothing happens by chance and if you remove your life before you have realized your life's true potential, then indeed there will be severe consequences.

Hmmm ... I’m not the one considering “removing” myself.
I once spent a frantic week literally “sitting” on someone who “wanted” to commit suicide. I turned my back for 15 minutes and she managed to kill herself after all.
That was long ago.

Now, I’m perfectly okay with a person who decides to “end” themselves.
I might feel some level of empathy/sympathy for those they leave behind that were relying on them.

For those who honestly want to? Not so much.
What pisses me off are the ones who “pretend” to get attention.

@Bay0Wulf I suppose we can debate the morality of suicide. However, whether it's moral or not, the fact that's it's occurring at this frequency in such a specific population would indicate that either the transition is the cause of the despair that leads to it, which is not what I think, or there's another cause that should be examined.

@MickeyRat According to many that I a have listened to, many of these individuals as children were perfectly okay with wearing a dress ... dressing up in momma's shoes. And often these kids and parents are happy and stable. But once you begin to introduce artificial opposite hormones - which they must take for the rest of their lives to be male/female - the body will eventually overcome the artificial with the true. It becomes a question of desperation. "Why did my parent allow me to do this to my body...?". Then comes the answer, "my parents allowed this because I wanted it". Then the clashes begin...the guilt that they cannot blame their parents, because they were only being loving and allowing me to make a choice for my life that would change it completely...REMORSE sets in ... very hard. They cannot blame anyone .. .they cannot lash out at anyone.. they cannot blame their parents. Soon, the body will need heavier doses of the hormones that keep their chosen gender and soon a choice must be made... surgical transition or not. Once this choice is made, there is no return and once the natural harmony and balance of hormones produced are disrupted, extreme mood swings occur. Extreme anger occurs. Extreme depression occurs. Now, this is not every "transgender" person, but those who take their own lives, are those whose transition was not meant to be.

@MickeyRat lol.. I love that MickeyRat, just a synopsis.

@KebblerFox I'm certainly not in a position to invalidate your position and you may very well be right. It could come down to a value judgment. Is the transition today worth the possible despair tomorrow? However, that possibility does not appear to part of the conversation. I'm not even sure we have enough data to have that discussion.

I'm not sure it exists but, it would be interesting to see the suicide data among trans people broken down by time since transition. That would shed some light on this discussion. There might be multiple causes. If you see a large number shortly after the transition, those would be the ones that had another problem that led them to seek a gender change. However, there might also be another large number later when the hormones start wearing off. There's certainly enough room in that suicide statistic for both cases to exist.


Good conversation. The only thing that stands out to me is the question of mental health. If transsexualism doesn't come from a place of pathology, then surgery, hormone therapy, etc. is fine, I guess. But, if there is pathology--and I probably lean this way, then allowing people to cut on themselves is a more complicated question. Having society pay for it is absurd--beyond absurd. You know what? I identify as an Aston Martin (car) owner. Clearly, society should buy me an Aston Martin, so that I can live in harmony with my identity.

Anyway, sarcasm got the better of me. If 'transsexuals' have real mental health concerns, then we should probably be mindful of the consequences of pursuing drastic alterations. To ME, the high suicide rates may point to that reality. If I was just ____, then I would finally be happy.

I often wonder about all of the people who achieve quick fame who have killed themselves. If I was just famous/rich/loved by fans, then I would finally be happy. It's a death sentence. I have fame--my fans love me, I'm rich and can do or buy whatever I want, I'm still not happy. I have EVERYTHING, and I'm still not happy. I'm alone, and I don't know how to get a person to see me behind the fame and money. Nobody cares, why am I here? Bang!

Happiness--or human connection--doesn't come from money, and it doesn't come in another gender. That's a fallacy at best. In the case of transsexuals, they may even experience more isolation and lack of acceptance. I haven't personally met any transgendered people who were just flat out relaxed and happy--or content--or satisfied. The people--the human beings--I have known always had deep pain and usually some pretty serious childhood attachment injuries. I'm not making any assertions about this. It's just my observation--my experience.

I would really want to chat with those people at the human being level--drop all of the outward stuff away, and just talk to them as human beings who have emotional needs and go from that place forward. IF the person came to a healthy place in their lives, I wonder if they'd still be drawn to cut on themselves. Everyone is born what they are. If you have a penis, but wish you were a girl, then you were born with a penis, but wish you were a girl. That doesn't mean you HAVE to be a girl. In fact, you'll never be a girl like the born girls. You'll just reverse your situation. At best, you'll look like a girl, but parts of you will still be male--even some physical realities. It will never be real.

Things are always more complicated than you think they are, so I'm open to other ideas about it. But, this is where I'm sitting right now.

Great response Chuckpo. I lean towards the not-mentally-ill explanation for those who are committed completely to transitioning mostly because I have a few transgender friends and they seem fine. Or at least not dealing with any more angst than I am in my life (and I'm relatively mentally healthy). I don't think this precludes people who are mentally ill wanting to transition as a desperate measure to try and heal depression or body dysphoria. I just feel as if most trans people who transition are in fact happier than before. A lot of their depression may come from very few people or the wrong people wanting to have sex with them, or from being judged and derided by friends and family. I mean if we look at all the reasons non-transgender people experience depression, it makes sense that all that, on top of not having the body you want would be rough. I support their desire to transition. No, I shouldn't pay for it and neither should you. MtF transgender people should not be allowed to compete in women's sports. And the question of which bathroom (and other private, gendered spaces) to use still needs to be talked about.

@Fayerweather, sensible response. I have to admit my own distaste for 'cosmetic surgery, so there's that. A question I have is these surgeries actually add non-zero risk of dying, and that makes it a pretty heavy emotional decision. I want to know where the motivation is coming from. They can't escape 'different'. No matter how hard they try to find a 'normal', they'll never get there. SO, can they learn to accept who they are without drastic measures that are both expensive and dangerous, and may not in the end produce for you that thing you were looking for. There's been a number of transsexuals who regret the transition, by the way--some interesting reading. I don't know. I don't think we know enough about it. We do always try to group people up and nail 'em with one label, and that just doesn't reflect reality. There is likely a lot of variability in the group transgendered--maybe enough to include both of our perspectives.


People should be left safe and alone with their clothing choices, legal life choices etc. not a problem. Likewise I will not be forced to use made up words and play in their sand box. I will be polite and kind u til someone tries to force me to behave in a wya I object to. That includes being safe in my gym locker room from men.


Transgender is definately a mental illness. I've worked with many transgender men, and women, as a mental health social worker over the past 25 years. Not in an office, but in their homes, with friends, shopping, or getting a coffee and just driving for two hours. I respected each and every one of them even though they knew I did not agree with ignoring their definition of transgenderism, but we talked, I listen. There came a time when, like other entities, we began to look at this as a real thing (not a mental illness) and I had to now help transgender individuals bring forth and celebrate this mental illness. It was not nearly as much about society being against them as it was about the issues of dealing with a body, a reality that they didn't believe in or feel comfortable with. And no, most won't talk about it because most are just people, not SJWs.


It is my opinion that NONE of us should rely on government to "give" us our "rights." This only suffices to make a political commodity out of them. It should suffice that laws against harassment, assault, murder etc., apply to all across the board--carving out special groups for extra treatment isn't going to make these things MORE (or less) illegal. Also, I take a seriously dim view of children being subjected to transgender agendas, increasingly against parental authority--that is pure politics, and consequently purely heinous.

Same on the children. Children should be allowed to grow up without medical intervention to change their gender. If my child insisted repeatedly that they were in the wrong body, I would allow them to dress how they pleased, but I wouldn't allow them to take hormones

The UK government is introducing an LGBT education program in schools in September and this is intended for children as young as 4! Can you hear my scream from over there?!


Working on the wrong problem. This issue affects a very tiny minority of people (actual transgenders). The rest of us, generally, use the issue as a platform for discussion of various issues. Nothing wrong with that. I have only been exposed to one trans lady at church and it's a non-event. Everybody gets along and no one seems to care one way or the other. The biggest problem I have is why we feel the need to restructure language/beliefs,etc to "accomodate" such a tiny minority. Massive societal changes to address a minor issue defies my sense of proportional response.

I think this is an issue with SJWs in general. As Jordan Peterson often says, the purpose of the left is to speak for the dispossessed at the bottoms of hierarchies. And they do this. But not often in the best ways. They chose to go about it using identity politics and intersectionality. Which is toxic and ineffective. It creates dizzying layers of victim mentality and pits people against each other. What they should really be doing is speaking for the poor people of the world, regardless of race or gender. Or for all LGBT people who are attacked or murdered regardless of race or gender. This excluding of white men from societal sympathy is wrong. And so they end up demanding that the majority bend over backwards in order to accommodate a tiny minority.

Broken window. This small forced accommodation is not in itself a hardship but it is a harbinger of things to come. Every inch of your self respect you that lose when you participate in a lie or mouth gibberish to please others is hurtful to you. You are slowly being coerced into believing the unbelievable and eventually you will be enslaved. First, they broke your window and you did nothing, now they're looting your house. Think of all the things you can't say,.. females are not as strong as men, white privilege is nonsense, motherhood is a wonderful fulfilling occupation, Islam is not the religion of peace, all lives matter... Soon you will be agreeing that you deserve the theft of everything you own


There was a time when transgender individuals were simply "drag queens" and "queers". This issue has been a apart of human existence, since human existence. But the idea that these people should be considered victims under some civil rights agenda, is false. Transgenderism, is NOT reality. Transgender female athletes competing against natural females, is NOT Fair..! In every cell in their body lies and X and a Y chromosome... meaning, that they are Males...stronger, faster, able to endure far longer. We cannot say that biology is mistaken... that some kind of mistake was made. It is long known that certain people are born with even both male and female reproductive organs and often, their parents must make a choice... raise Clara or Clarence. Being transgender, is a choice by most ... and a farce by most. Children who identify as the opposite gender, are often influenced by parents who believe that their child will make up their mids about there gender ... later on in life ... but they are 3 right now and must be raise as gender neutral. There is no such thing as gender neutral... there are only two extremes .. . Male and Female.


My concerns with the Trans community is sports related. My daughter is a track athlete and she should not compete against bio males.

Really this is simple.
Like drug testing.
You either ARE on Steroids ... or you are NOT.
If you ARE ... you are ineligible to “Compete”
You either DO have a “Y” Chromosome ... or you DON’T.
If you DO ... you are ineligible to “Compete”.

@Bay0Wulf WE have talked to our daughter about what we will do if a boy shows up to one of her meets. I would want her to refuse to compete.

It’s the only real option when you get down to it.
Sports, including track, is about the performance average of wins over loses (at least it was when I ran). Once you toe that line, the outcome goes into your average ... the reason for the win or loss is not recorded ...
Even if she has a high degree of confidence that she can beat ... it (I got my clock cleaned by a gal at BU once) ... if she (or the other gals) accepts the challenge once, they’ll be given that much more static the first time she sizes up a person and withdraws.
It’s really a literal “No Win” situation.
The SJWs are going to have a “field day” pretty much any way that works out.
If she’s a serious athlete she’s better off protecting her average than trying to appease them.

Perhaps when females get enough of any trans abuse in sports, maybe they’ll choose between Ovary-Only and Prostate-Only competitions? And better, that they wait after enough “authentic women beat authentic trans” events take place?
Clearly, pro-trans surgery types would not appreciate the idea of ovary and prostate donors for their being complete in life. Genital conversion is for plastic surgery.
A trans master would also be “someone who found out” that life works with a Frankenstein’s penis, when they choose what they’ve got in life....and it’s always best to choose wisely.


All people should be respected as a common courtesy. However when you start trying to force people to treat an abnormal condition as one that is totally normal it is simply wrong. You see you may want to be called a Dog and run around on all fours barking. But for you to then expect me to not only agree that you are indeed a dog is ludicrous. And by me doing so is actually a form of abuse.! To tell a schizophrenic that his voices or Hallucinations are real and totally normal is in itself a delusion and form of mental abuse. Further more the Trans community suggests that if you aren’t attracted to someone who transitions then there is something wrong with you. Because they believe that the surgery made them a different sex and gender. Sex and gender are the same medically and biologically and have been historically. Surgery doesn’t make you change sex or genders. What it does do is mask what your real sex or gender is. It’s like and old saying and pardon me if it doesn’t sit well, but the saying applies to much harsher subjects that being Trans.... “ You can dress a Terd up any way you want. But no matter what, it’s still a piece of shit”.


Trans gender, gender neutral, gender fluid what's wrong with you people. I'm sorry to inform you that your either male or female and not a single cell omaeba.

Wholeheartedly agree...

amoeba* wholeheartedly disagree. also good attack helicopter argument from 2008.


I agree with much of what you have said, regarding transgenderism, having worked and become friends with a man who went through the entire transition process to become a woman (at his own expense) for over 7 years. I knew her as man in hormone and psychotherapy and as a woman returned from radical surgery in Thailand. We had many detailed conversations about this in the lunchroom at work. This person grew up Mormon, married, and had 4 children. In his mid 50s, the gender dysphoria caused suicide attempts, divorce, and estrangement from his entire biological family and his spiritual support group. It was not and is not an easy or happy course. There was an attempt by some local guys to throw him off of our famous bridge. So, no, the people who go through this process are not transtrenders (like Kaitlyn Jenner); they are choosing plastic surgery and hormones to bring their appearance into sync with their incurable psychological disorder. While it helps with the mind/body conflict, it creates new tragedies. Estrangement from loved ones and the unassuageable pain of never being permitted to meet and embrace grandchildren or share a holiday meal with siblings. Constant ridicule and suspicion from strangers. True transgender people never live happily ever after, even if they develop a strong support network of friends. Suicide stalks them.

Those who "identify as" transgender are imposters and coattail riders. They shouldn't be permitted to legally assume a new "identity" unless and until full surgical transition is completed. Even then, it is an imposition on the individual liberty of others to force acceptance. They have the right to procure gender reassignment surgery, just as others have a right to implants, augmentation, or reductions AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. Conversely, treating transgender people rudely is reprehensible, though rudeness to anyone should not be a crime.

Regarding pronouns, post-menopausal women deal with it frequently, especially farm wives with short hair. Why should transgender people be legally protected from offenses? Grow a pair and don't be thin-skinned about pronouns. Other people don't have to go along with your script. We have our own delusions.

While I don't have a problem with a fully transitioned person using the bathroom they are equipped for, trans-posers and transtrenders need to respect others, rather than demanding acceptance in the privy or locker room. Transgenderism is not a sexual orientation. They may be heterosexually attracted to their biological gender. They are no more likely to pedophiles or rapists than the rest of the population. Regardless of which adults are using public restrooms, children should ALWAYS be accompanied by a responsible adult. Why do parents not know this?

Finally, it's dangerous for biological females to compete physically with biological males in sports. It also allows monetary prizes and scholarships to be heisted from female athletes. As for beauty pageants, how about if all of the contestants have surgeries to make their bodies more perfect, rather than going to the gym?

I absolutely agree on the sports issue. That to me is one of the most deluded things. How do you convince yourself that it is even close to fair to beat the pants off a group of people who are all 30 to 40% weaker and smaller than you are? It is dangerous and unfair to have trans women compete with biological women in sports of any kind.


I guess there are 3 points of contention:

  1. Children - The move to "transition" children, who aren't allowed to drive a car, vote or drink but somehow should be believed when they say they are another gender(which they couldn't possibly be informed of) this should be considered child abuse. Medical licenses should be lost and people should go to jail for this obvious injustice.
  2. Free speech - The person speaking gets to do so freely. They can be hateful or loving as they see fit.
  3. Use of Restrooms - Rules to be established by venue and published if they are not in agreement with science.

Some info - A majority of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it. LGBT welcoming Sweden has similar suicide rate as elsewhere suggesting suicide rate is not externally caused. Suicide rate after transitioning is still high - doesn't solve the problem.

As Lorelee notes below, the 4th point is sports and competition. Men and women are different. It is not fair for males to compete against females.

I reiterate what I posted below;

Really this is simple.
Like drug testing.
You either ARE on Steroids ... or you are NOT.
If you ARE ... you are ineligible to “Compete”
You either DO have a “Y” Chromosome ... or you DON’T.
If you DO ... you are ineligible to “Compete”.

Actually ... “Suicide rate after transitioning is still high - doesn't solve the problem.”
Seems to me it “solves the problem” quite handily.

@Bay0Wulf I want to see a study that compares pre transition suicide rates to post transition suicide rates. I've only ever seen one study and it compared suicide rates after transition to those of the general public as still being high. Which makes sense, as trans people deal with a lot of judgment and violence after transitioning as compared with the normal population.

The thing is, when I want to talk about looking into it, my liberal friends freak out at me. They won't allow any opinions on transgenderism other than it is 100% natural and OK in any circumstances.

Well, I think the first problem with any study on this topic about that is the subject (the person).
I think it’s pretty clear that a person who decides to engage in such a practice is pretty “conflicted” before deciding to “transition”. So the “base-line” would require identifying the group of people who are leaning in that direction before they decide to “transition” and see how many of those people tend towards suicide.
I can’t imagine that “transitioning” makes them any less likely to kill themselves, it’s not like radically transforming oneself in such a manner is a panacea or cure for starting out in a mentally or emotionally disturbed state ... it is more likely to create more problems than solve the ones they start with.
So if someone who is already having problems dealing with the severe mental and emotional state of “disphoria” (I think that’s the term used these days) undergoes such a radical transformation and then finds themselves still unsatisfied but now even more highly stressed, would a higher rate of suicide come as a surprise?
Deciding to “become” a woman/man is fraught with all sorts of problems that would only tend to exacerbate the ones they already had. Such as; Truthfully, how many of their friends and relatives are likely to understand ... to actually “like” the new “them” ... to actually support the new “them”? How much more likely is it that they find themselves essentially ostracized from all the people ... the society they knew previously?
For many people it’s hard enough being who they are even though they’ve been that their entire lives. To suddenly “transition” into someone even THEY don’t know would seem to be immensely more difficult.


Another thought, but then it is early and my coffee sits before me. The day is fresh my mind is clear. If we don't model the words we use, then why use the words? Did someone already say that in my sleep?

29 years ago a little guy came into my life. We shared a name, Tom. He liked that. Tom was the son of my wife's (now ex) personal care assistant.

I'm a Christian. It's nothing that I hide or am ashamed of, nor do I wear it as a badge of moral superiority. As the years went by we heard, from his mother when she came to work, (she became a friend), about how Tom was getting into trouble, using drugs. He had a couple of suicide attempts. Because I worked for many years as a social worker I was often in a position to help.

Tom has always been quiet. His personality is friendly if one on one, and not so good in crowds. Tom is conservative. I wasn't really shocked when Tom said he was transgender.

Fast forward twenty years. Tom is now a Trans woman. She is a recurrent relapsing opioid addict. Beaten and hospitalized many times. The memory of Charlie Howard is still fresh in many minds here.

I won't use her real name but I will refer to her, as her. I thought about that, and loathing hypocrisy, I treated her as a person. And that would be real insulting to go back and forth. She knows completely, without doubt, that I do not support this and view it as a mental illness.

This is long, but it is important because it is so divisive. I know and read that most here do value the individual, I have heard it countless times. So my 35 year old Trans woman friend has agreed, as has a 16 year old trans man, to write me, a 60 year old white cis gendered conservative Christian male, letters of recommendation. The conversations need to happen when what you speak is borne out by your words.


The right prides itself on the idea of freedom and self determination. To that end, if a woman wants to be a man and so forth, all fine by me and mine. What I cannot abide and won't stand for is the forcing of the terminology and will of others. That's where the line needs to be drawn. Be what you want just don't force me to accept of validate it.


Hi. There's a good conversation going on here - I like that. 🙂
I get a little puzzled when they talk about trans rights. We already have the human rights and the entitlement to the equal protection by the law. So, I don't know what else trans people are demanding.
I have a trans lady neighbour; when she was he, he suffered trauma and subsequently he discovered new himself. Now he introduces himself as Alice, and we, his neighbours, are fine with that. We accommodate his mental disorder as well as himself as a person. It's no different from a person with depression. I think integration is the key. If a trans person cannot mix with others, I dare say probably it's not the others; its the trans person. No matter who they are, what they are, morality, decency, mutual respect, that kind of things still count, I think.
From evolutionary point of view, gender transition defies reproduction, so, the trans gene pool is not likely to establish...
That's all I have to say about that.
(Oh, just one more thing; I wish trans people didn't try so hard to look male or female. 😀)

They typically ... just like everyone else that says they want “.... Rights” ... want, in fact, “Special” Rights.
Rights which ONLY Apply to THEM (Whoever and Whatever THEY might be)

In which case, they should be laughed at and scorned and perhaps ostracized until they figure themselves out ...

That's a bit harsh, no?

Naomi, I agree with your point on rights, we all have human rights, and trans people are people, so they are human, and you are correct, what more do they need in terms of human rights? However just a thought Naomi, it is nice that you are "accommodating (your neighbour) mental disorder", but isn't that the problem? Since it is a mental disorder, we should not accommodate it, we should help him get the help he needs to fix it. A caring person does what is nice, a loving person does what is right. I think society has the wrong idea, we need to stop being nice, and start doing what is right!

I agree with you to an extent. I don't see anything wrong with accommodating trans people, though, provided that they recognise their condition, i.e., gender dysphoria. Plus, gender dysphoria isn't a synonym of madness - Alice, my neighbour isn't a mad person; apart from his slightly odd appearance and the soft voice he chooses to use, you can have a decent conversation with him. Alice is also blind - she has more than enough problems to cope with... (I'm mixing up gender pronouns here, but I'm sure Alice forgives me. 😛) Also. I don't think gender dysphoria is something one can fix, same as many other mental disorders. I think it's important that people admit that they have problems, gender dysphoria, depression, bipolar, anorexia, etc. That makes a good start so that their families, friends and neighbours can accommodate such problems while, like you say, helping them to cope with the problems better. I think one can be nice and practical at the same time.

@Naomi I agree. I don't tend to view it strictly as a mental health disorder, but even if I did, we should treat it as compassionately as we do depression and anxiety. People used to mock those with depression and tell them to "get over it", just as people used to think being gay was a mental illness and that people could choose to be gay. No one should choose to be trans. I am assuming it is a compulsion that drives people to want to present as the opposite gender to the point where they feel trapped inside their bodies and need escape. That is sad and concerning and not something we should ridicule or mock.

Thank you for sharing my point. Of course, there are "fake" ones around and that's for sure, but other than that, they really need help. It is said that gay people were born gay, in other words, there is no cure. I know some one who suffers depression and someone who is schizophrenic. (Only God knows why I tend to encounter such people. lol) They're on medication and see specialists regularly. On the surface, you wouldn't notice anything wrong with them straight away, but they're constantly struggling inside. It's definitely not a good idea to tell them to man up or get a life - hell no. At the same time, I think it's also wrong to treat them as some special privileged kind of people, and certainly, they shouldn't see themselves that way either. You don't patronise them, you don't pity them, you don't tiptoe around them, and most of all, you don't label them... Having that kind of attitude seems to help me interact with them well.


There was a recent study re Transgenderism out of Brown University and published in Daily Science. It was quickly withdrawn due to SJW bullying and the researcher was let go. You can still read it on-line however, just google the topic and University and it will come up. Its findings were important in that it indicated that (among young females) if there is one female in a group of peers that proclaims transgenderism it is highly likely to trigger similar proclamations from the rest of the group. In other words, a 'contagen'.

I do not know if Studies were allowed to follow the long-term outcomes. It would certainly be important to know since our government, teachers, and doctors seem overly willing to jump to hormonal therapy options and even over-riding parents rights.

Society has, I think, found a new 'shiny thing'. Science be damned. It is easier to throw drugs at a problem than to deal with the uncomfortable idea that maybe something is seriously wrong with the way we are raising our young. Could it be that boys and girls need, crave, strong male and female role models? Do they need to be affirmed in their sexuality at certain stages of their development? Do we need to cut back on the social distain of motherhood, femininity, fatherhood and masculinity? The fact that depression and suicide is high even after hormonal and surgical treatment strongly suggests that this is a mental health issue not a 'wrong body' issue.

To me, proclaiming oneself a transgender seems more like a cry for help, and ignoring that cry by going along with the delusion seems dismissively cruel.

PS There are several postings from ex-transgender persons on FB.

I agree that "transtrenders" are definitely a thing. And people who are "gender queer" or "gender fluid" who don't want to transition. I feel like a lot of those people will revert to more binary gender roles after their women's studies classes end and they settle into being adults. The one study I saw that showed that transgender people's levels of suicide didn't go down after transition was based on comparing them to suicide rates of the general population, which I felt was unfair. Trans people still have to face a lot of isolation, fear and hate, post transition. It would be interesting to see how many trans men (females who became males) are suicidal post transition. Everyone seems to forget about them, and it is FAR easier for them to "pass" as biologically male than it is for a tall, awkward, deep voiced male bodied person to do so. Does being seen as the gender you want to be seen as help alleviate depression? That's what I want to know. Because if so, most trans women would struggle with that. It is just hard in many cases for a trans woman to pass as female completely.

Regardless, we need to do a lot more unbiased research. Not feminist research or anti-trans as a valid identity research, but unbiased research

@Fayerweather I like your take. I know a couple transpersons going both ways, most are not political, just like most don't play sports. people get very upset over other people's minutia. the internet increases the velocity of these ideas creating a sort of mini butterfly effect.


So if your daughter is in the bathroom and a guy who says he is a girl follows her in you would be comfortable,then you suck as a parent


The old saying, "as a man thinks so a man does" has been reversed by the progressive movement. "As a man says, so a man thinks". A rather false assumption. Legislated compelled speech is violence against the body politic. It does no one good and all harm.

I care not what a man or woman thinks about themselves. I don't care if they wish to adopt the clothing and mannerism of the opposite sex. Nor do I view these things as legal or political rights, per se. The idea that a trans woman who shows up in the classroom of my six year old child in scantily and sexually suggestive attire is some legal or political right is well beyond the pale of common sense for any society.

We do usually tolerate those individuals who wear body jewelry, wear their hair or lack of it is non normal fashions, wear particular clothing that denotes their social and political thinking or orientation. If my business was to cater to such various individuals then "straight" people may not be the best fit to sell them what they desire. On the other hand, if I cater to straight people than the non straight individual may not be the best fit in my business. Toleration is a two way street as is respect.

I do not move in circles where I meet any trans, queer, or other self referenced identities. I don't hang out at Starbucks or Wholefoods and places like that. I pick and choose those with whom I wish to associate and expect the same of others. Would I befriend a trans person? That is possible, depends on their personality, but it is far from reality as I am not a group joiner. I don't do a lot of group activities. I belong to an art museum but I do not join tours of the museum or the social stuff so many others enjoy.

So, if you think you are a woman trapped in a man's body, that is your problem, your thinking. If you want to take hormones and have the surgery, that is your decision. But you have no legal right to ask me to pay for the consequences of your own thoughts and actions. In my view, you have no right to conceive yourself disabled. I know what disability is and I have three disabilities, none of which were caused by my own thinking. Sounds harsh, I know.


For a start it's hard to not get emotional over a subject that effect's so many in so many way's.
So i will try but no promises.

  1. live your life how you choice don't push it it on anyone else. And this is being done.
  2. restroom usage is be hijacked by pervs. We should all agree that this is a problem that could be soloved if the advertising for equality in restrooms was not done.
  3. i am asking you to go to the FBI site and look at the pedophile symbols and you will notice they are everywhere in everyday life is this related in a round about way yes. Not directed at trans people.
  4. suicide and depression is very high within the community ant not why you may think reseach more
  5. it is now ilegal in Chicago to seek help from a preacher if you do he may be imprisoned why?
  6. the movement was more then pride and self respect to political parties this is wrong
  7. I have great respect for those in the comunity who stand against excepting the I'm not sure the proper trems but child attracted pedophiles.
  8. why is this being taught to children at 4 year's of age when we all understand children explore their world why sway them.
  9. my biggest concern for the community is they have been outed so to say and harm my come to them first at the hands of those they least expect it to come from
  10. if we don't follow the big 10 then we are all wrong in some way

This appears to be a reasonable approach. I agree that adults have the right to determine their own behavior and experience the results of their decisions.

My objection to the trans movement rests with the treatment of children. Parents, supported by courts, are imposing changes with potentially disastrous consequences on innocent children. I do not accept that individuals as young as 5 or even less could possibly know they are in the wrong body.

Maybe I'm just a slow learner, but I discovered at age 45 that life long depression was partly a result of trying to be my father. Relief came with the realization that other than what I had manipulated, I was very unlike him. The point here is that who I actually am was unknown to me until that time.

Don't you think that to allow unalterable physical changes to be imposed before an individual has any opportunity to discover themselves is a dispicable act of oppression?


I'm glad you brought this up. I've been very concerned about this topic for many reasons. One of which, my daughter has a a newly minted trans-boy in her class at school. This child, that all the kids in our small town have known throughout their school years, is now, as a ninth-grader, declaring she is a boy. She is a he now with a male name, but no hormones or surgeries, etc. Of course there are mixed reactions, and few students remember to use the new name because of habit, since after all, the kids have all grown up together. The thing that really bothers me is the reaction of the some of the teachers. My daughter overheard one particular teacher discussing with this student that during the parent/teacher conference, it was agreed that the name "assigned at birth" would be used in discussions with the parents, but during class, the boy name would be used. It was obvious that the parents were to be kept in the dark about the name/gender change. So can any child now defy their parents and change their name at school or with friends, etc. ? What about parental rights ? I feel like this is deceptively wrong, and that at least the teacher should encourage this kid to be honest. Supporting a minor to deceive their own parents, does not sit well with me. Also, there's the whole bathroom thing. I think it is awkward, uncomfortable and frightening if you're a woman in a bathroom with an obvious male there beside you. A bathroom is a very vulnerable place for women if biological men can now be with them. For a woman to feel this way is not bigoted or phobic. While certainly common courtesy should be extended to everyone, what about the biological womens' feelings? I personally know several women who have been sexually assualted by men and the tramatic experience makes them very leary of men in certain social situations. Forcing them to share intimate spaces will men is not respectful of the safety or feelings of most women, but especially the sexual abuse victims. For those trans people who easily pass, no harm, no foul. But for those who basically look like like a guy in a skirt, I truly feel for them, but I still believe a natural woman's feelings should take precedent over theirs. So where does this end? I remember that it was only going to be bathrooms and not changing rooms that would adapt. Okay, so now minors with compulsory gym classes and sports are forced to change or see someone changing who has different parts than them. This is sexual harassment! Why do we even have male and female changing rooms and bathrooms at all ? It is because of our physical differences, otherwise just have them change in the hallway in front of their lockers. Bodily privacy is important to most people. Yes, I suppose there are some who go to nudist resorts, even with their own children present, and are totally comfortable with that, but in public, most are not comfortable with open nudity/partial nudity and yet a small minority gets to force their will on a far larger group and cause them emotional distress, while they get their feelings fully supported at the cost of MOST women, (also men too, but I'm a woman, speaking from my unique point of view). Also I scratch my head over this practice as well, because a transgirl wanting to be "just one of the girls" and fit in, must certainly realize just how profound the differences are once clothes start coming off. I would think viewing other young women dressing would exacerbate their dysphoria and make them feel less comfortable. I have no hateful feelings against the trans community, but I do believe much of their activism is very dangerous. We must try to balance compassion with truth and reality. Finally, with the subverting of parental rights over their own children's desires concerning something as important as a gender change and all the cross-hormone, puberty-blocking drugs, etc., that entails - the next logical step will be lowering the age of consent and introducing acceptable, then enforced pediophilia. Sadly, the beginnings of this already have a foot in the door. Consider the child drag queens who can dance suggestively for howling crowds of men lecherously oogling them. Well, it's art, that makes it okay. So how long until an 11 year old wants to go out with a 40-yr. old and if the child desires such a thing, how dare the parent thwart their human rights ? This is the hill to die on now..


I personally don’t have a problem with trans people. My issue is it’s been high jacked as the next cause. There have been trans people of decades most get on with there lives and don’t want any undue attention. The other I use I have is we now have man transition so they can compete against women this is not right.


I agree in a live and let live attitude but my experience, as the pronoun battle. There should not be criminal punishment for disagrement on gender pronouns. The push back from straight cis people stems, not from hatred(at least for the most part) but from the demonization of cis people by militant people ( most of whom are not trans) for the freedom to disagree. Like gays and lesbians, years before, people are learning much but unlike some SJWs, who seek to represent the Trans community, cos people are only being told how hateful and ignorant they are instead of having meaningful discourse with Trans people directly. Thanks for your insights and comments. It is really nice to engage in intelligent discussion without fear.

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