You sound entirely hysterical.

When Trump banned "CRT" was that fascist?

@bastion For your own sake don't come up with your own meanings for words. First, hysterical is a sexist word and at some point your Third Wave cohorts will remind you not to use that when speaking to a woman, and second, hysterical is not pointing out how incredibly dumbed down the population has become that they truly believe censorship is a good thing --rather "hysterical" is the reaction to books and words you don't like with censorship, cancelling, and doxxing.

I can see from the "Trump" that you are "one of those" people who believe anyone who has a contradictory opinion is a Trump fan. Standards don't exist when they are not applied equally.

I am ALWAYS against censorship, spying, bombing kids, drug wars, police brutality--regardless of who is in office. Can you say the same?

Virginia removed Dr Seuss from academic lessons.

@ThomasinaPaine

I don't know about all of Virginia, but certainly Loudon County, which is interesting in that it's the top county in the entire country in terms of per capita income. So basically, you have this extremely wealthy county now telling us that books that have existed for at least 50-60 years, are now problematic.

And so, I think it's reasonable to ask: "how do they know?" How many people in Loudon county are suffering from systemic racism or oppression? I'm wagering none.

No i can hear you directly crying on here about what the media tells you to cry about. This week it's Mr Potato head and Dr Seuss. Last week it was coke.

People on here that can't even spell his name are angry about "Dr Zeus"

People like Dinesh D'souza are celebrating Dr Seuss books selling in large volumes, to get back at the publishers of the books who are profiting lol.

It's all hilariously stupid..

@bastion

Okay. If it helps you to think of me as a simpleton in order to make your days easier, you have my blessing. I'm disappointed you'd resort to that, but not shocked either, as that seems to be your MO.

@Alysandir you've ignored the entire contents of my post there. I'll do it line by line for you, see if you can engage with any of it rather than taking offence?

Last week conservatives on here wanted to boycott coke
This week they want to boycott Mr Potato head.
As they are angry with Dr Seuss's publishers : they want to read Dr Seuss books
Dinesh is celebrating Seuss books selling lots : to get back at the publishers.

Here's the Dinesh tweet, maybe try and disagree with me on that?

[twitter.com]

"Karma is a bitch department.

Dr. Seuss Books Hold 42 of Top 50 on Amazon Sales Ranking Chart"

@bastion

I didn't ignore anything you wrote. I merely responded to your very first sentence:

No i can hear you directly crying on here about what the media tells you to cry about

In other words, my challenge to you about listening and then making up your mind, was met with an accusation that I'm just crying because the media tells me to, implying that I cannot think for myself.

I then responded to that with an acknowledgement that if you must see me as a simpleton in order to cope, then do so, although I am disappointed by it. To which you then again imply I'm a simpleton who ignored your post and needed to have it repeated because I'm offended. For the record, you cannot offend me, because I am not emotionally invested in your opinion.

In summary, our conversation so far has consisted of little more than you characterizing me as dim and easily upset and me observing that you appear to lack the will to hear what anyone outside your ideology has to say, which your actions are proving correct.

Now that we are on the same page, do you wish to continue, or should I assume that you've got more unkind and largely irrelevant things to say about me instead of answering the original question?

@Alysandir That was a general "you" as in "you conservatives. Amazing the lengths you'll go to avoid my actual points.

I'll do it line by line for you, see if you can engage with any of it rather than taking offence?

Last week conservatives on here wanted to boycott coke
This week they want to boycott Mr Potato head.
As they are angry with Dr Seuss's publishers : they want to read Dr Seuss books
Dinesh is celebrating Seuss books selling lots : to get back at the publishers.

Here's the Dinesh tweet, maybe try and disagree with me on that?

[twitter.com]

"Karma is a bitch department.

Dr. Seuss Books Hold 42 of Top 50 on Amazon Sales Ranking Chart"

@bastion

That was a general "you" as in "you conservatives. Amazing the lengths you'll go to avoid my actual points.

So because I am not a mind-reader and did not understand that you meant conservatives - which, BTW, I am not one; I'm libertarian - and because you elected to use ambiguous language instead of just saying, "No i can hear conservatives directly crying on here about what the media tells you to cry about," then your conclusion is that I'm ducking your arguments. You created the confusion, but somehow the blame lay with me. How tidy.

The truth is, I am not responding to your other points because they are not relevant to the question I asked you. Certainly, I acknowledge that's what YOU want to talk about - and you've been taking extraordinary measures to steer the conversation in that direction - but my question to you was about you listening and giving a fair shot before deciding. Go back and check, it's still there.

So if anything, you are intentionally avoiding my original challenge to you while accusing me of refusing to engage with what you want to talk about. Are you ever going to address the topic I started, or are you going to continue to throw things in my face under the implication that I somehow need to defend them?

@Alysandir I replied to you and answered you very directly. You are putting in a lot of effort in avoiding replying to me. You blamed the media, I said I can read the posts on here.

It's ok, you can avoid answering if you want - it's pretty common on here, people seem to lack the ability to actually engage with the arguments and tend to resort to stock phrases they learn from youtube etc.

I'll do it line by line for you, see if you can engage with any of it rather than taking offence?

Last week conservatives on here wanted to boycott coke
This week they want to boycott Mr Potato head.
As they are angry with Dr Seuss's publishers : they want to read Dr Seuss books
Dinesh is celebrating Seuss books selling lots : to get back at the publishers.

Here's the Dinesh tweet, maybe try and disagree with me on that?

[twitter.com]

"Karma is a bitch department.

Dr. Seuss Books Hold 42 of Top 50 on Amazon Sales Ranking Chart"

I can see why you wouldn't want to engage with this to be honest, hard to actually defend it.

@bastion

I replied to you and answered you very directly. You are putting in a lot of effort in avoiding replying to me.

Then you'll have to help me and point out exactly where you answered this question:

"I mean, you ask this courtesy for yourselves; why would you not extend it to others?"

Because that's what this conversation thread is entirely about. Not what you want to talk about, no matter how many times you want to make it about that. Because right now, I see no evidence you actually listened to what any of those folks had to say, you're just mocking their conclusions.

@Alysandir Is this a "listen and believe" thing where you want me to empathise with rightwingers about their grievances and understand them and say they are right even when they are getting angry abour Mr Potato head in a way that makes no sense at all?

Shall I pretend Mr Potato head has been cancelled?

Shall I pretend buying Dr Seuss books to get one over on the people that are selling them makes sense?

Shall I pretend the right don't love cancel culture despite trying to cancel coke, Kelloggs, keurig, Nike etc?

@bastion

This is the first reasonable response I've seen from you yet. Thank you.

I don't care whether you "listen and believe;" from what you've shown me through my time here on Slug, I know that's not what you're about. I don't even care if you empathize, because empathy requires you see others as equals, and I strongly suspect you don't see conservatives (or libertarians) as ideological equals. What I want, what I would expect ANY person of reason to do - irrespective of their political or ideological inclinations - is to listen to what's being said and evaluate it rationally.

I make this point because far too often I encounter this attitude from people on the ideological Left where they believe that the Right has nothing of value to say, hence they pay no attention to them. Instead, they simply mock anything they have to say as meritless, because they never bothered to understand WHY the Right was speaking.

Does this mean I think the Right is always correct? No. Frankly, I am neither Left nor Right, or more correctly, I am Left on certain things and Right on others.

Do I think the Mr. Potato head thing is silly? Yes. My objection to it, as I recall, was that it was a pointless expenditure in a rebrand at a time where businesses are financially hurting. I seem to recall saying something to the effect of, "I don't care if they call it plastic crap in a box."

Do I think buying Dr. Seuss books "gets one over" on the publishers? No. I think some people are trying to make a buck and I think other people are trying to preserve something that they feel is being unfairly characterized as bad. I would imagine there is also a case of FOMO going on.

Do I think the ideological Right doesn't love cancel culture? I would say they have their own form that's called, "voting with your wallet." And there is a distinction there, in that when you vote with your wallet, you're choosing to not do business with a company but otherwise do not care whether the company remains in business. Cancel culture takes that a step further; for example, the letter writing campaign to all of Goya's business partners, threatening their businesses with boycott if they continue to do business with Goya, all because the CEO of Goya expressed support for then President Trump.

Anyway, I'm tired of this conversation, so I'm exiting it. I asked you why you would not extend the courtesy of listening and for at least this one brief moment in time, you did: right here with me. Hopefully there was some value you extracted from it.

@bastion I'm sure the erection from trolling is a pretty big one but if you want to continue trolling in the future maybe pump the brakes on the knee jerk defense of cancel culture.

@bastion Not to but in but ...cancel culture is not "boycotts" alone. It is not trying to boycott Nike or even boycotting Chickfila. It is mobbing people on social media with "kill yourself" and "get raped" and "I hope you die in a fire", threatening someone through DMs with doxxing or violence and brigading on reddit, discord, or a chan to mass report someone.

When you can show me proof that Jerry Falwell slid into someone's DMs to threaten them with rape to get them to love male dick the way transactivists have done to JK Rowling or Arielle Scarcella then I will--I promise-- call him out. Everyone should.

Dr King boycotted people, I have boycotted people, I have never and will NEVER threaten someone's job, their kids, their personal sexual safety, or try to form a mob to harass an individual.

I’m going side with you on the issue of hypocrisy. It should be called-out whenever it manifests.
Unfortunately in 2021 the most egregious offences are coming from the Left. But part of the explanation is is the now naked bias exhibited by the mainstream media and their Silicon valley overlords.
In time the pendulum will swing back. I would caution my conservative brethren to resist the temptation to become as censorious and wilfully blind as the progressive lunatics they oppose.

@stevie-f [bbc.co.uk]

Trump banned diversity training.

[theguardian.com]

@bastion

Trump banned diversity training.

Trump banned critical race theory "training," on the grounds that anything that presupposes that all white people are racist is - by its very nature - racist.

Now, you are free to disagree on this point, but don't obfuscate the issue by calling this "diversity training." There is nothing diverse about lecturing to white people that it's not sufficient to not be racist - because you can't "not be racist" - you have to be "anti-racist" and help tear down society to rid it of alleged systemic racism.

@Alysandir banning critical race theory was one of the better initiatives of the Trump administration. CRT is corrosive bullshit

@Alysandir Can you show me where the training that trump banned said all white people are racist? I bet you can't.

@bastion

As you wish.

Here are some articles for your appetizer, all from left-leaning sources, so there's no need to prepare a rejection of the source on the grounds that it's conservative.

[wsj.com]

[shrm.org]

[npr.org]

This should - at least - clearly establish for you what Trump did and did not ban.

I will serve up your main course once I've gotten to an actual computer, where we can see together what critical race theory training looks like in execution. Until then, bon apetit.

@Alysandir

WSJ - paywalled.

SHRM - scanned it. It doesn't seem to say what you think it does.

NPR - same.

I'll wait for your proof that the training that Trump banned said all white people are racist.

@bastion

The pertinent part of the WSJ article is in front of the paywall. The other two articles are admissions of what Trump did and did not do, exactly as I said they did. I'm curious what it is you believe I thought they said, when I explicitly told you why I was including them.

@Alysandir Can you show me where the training that trump banned said all white people are racist? I bet you can't.

@bastion

Since you appear to have missed it the first time, I'll repeat it for you:

I will serve up your main course once I've gotten to an actual computer, where we can see together what critical race theory training looks like in execution.

I do not have the ability to upload attachments from my tablet. If you're implying that the delay is due to my inability to prove my point, then I suppose it will be just that much sweeter when I do.

Of course, I don't have any expectation that you'll acknowledge my point proven; you seem to be very good at reading what you want to read and avoiding that which you don't, and then declaring everyone who disagrees with you as having failed the burden of proof. But this exercise isn't so much for you as it is anyone else who happens upon this thread, so I can live with that.

@Alysandir It seems odd there's no evidence on the entire of the internet that actually shows CRT says white people are all racist, but you have it somewhere on your computer, but stranger things have happened.

I'm well aware that CRT is the biggest boogyman the right have at the moment and people like James Lindsay have made entire careers fearmongering about it.

I have my suspicions it doesn't say "all white people are racist" and probably says something a bit more nuanced than that, but i'm looking forward to you providing a quote.

@bastion

Well then, let's test a theory, shall we?

Here is a link to the presentation that was leaked from critical race theory "training" in the San Diego school district.

[christopherrufo.com]

Tell me - yes or no - if there is a slide that says "You are racist."
Tell me - yes or no - if there is a slide that says "How to be an anti-racist" Kendi 13 that defines what a racist is.
Tell me - yes or no - if there is a slide with a direct quote from Robin DiAngelo describing how white people created the system that the Kendi 13 slide describes as racist.

That will tell me everything I need to know about the rest of this conversation.

@Alysandir You've removed the context here haven't you? It's asking a question, how would you feel if someone said "you are racist"

I'm asking you to show me where CRT says all white people are racist.

You said:

"Trump banned critical race theory "training," on the grounds that anything that presupposes that all white people are racist is - by its very nature - racist."

I've heard conservatives (and libertartians too) say this but they never quite show where this is said, and I get the feeling you'll dance around for a while and not manage it either.

Funny how much anti-racism upsets some people eh.

edit: it's hilarious you have NO EVIDENCE on the whole internet and need to be at a special computer to have the evidence : all the conservatives are angry about CRT online but there's no evidence it says all white people are racist - amazing stuff really lol.

@bastion

So this is pretty much the response I expected.

It's not enough that the slides are presented only to white employees.
It's not enough that the slides describe what a racist is to CRT and then proceeds to say that white people are responsible for creating racism.

You want a blaring neon sign that says "white people are racist," or else everyone is crying over nothing.

I would imagine that the Coca-Cola CRT "training" which you continue to mock holds no sway with you either?

[twitter.com]

And as for you mocking me about my "special computer," it's where I've saved every training session that I've encountered on the internet, with the full expectation that it would be taken down.

@Alysandir I want actual evidence from the primary text, not you sending me to some rightwing guys website where he says things about the text.

I want you to give me proof CRT says "all white people are racist" - and you can't do it can you?

The coke training may be awful and say stupid stuff, but that's not what we are discussing is it?

"Can you show me where the training that trump banned said all white people are racist? I bet you can't."

Post the evidence please.

@bastion

The primary text was embedded in the "right-wing guy's" page. The actual slides from the training.

@Alysandir Which slide says "all white people are racist" ?

@Alysandir You given up then?

"Trump banned critical race theory "training," on the grounds that anything that presupposes that all white people are racist is - by its very nature - racist."

still waiting for this, i don't think you can ever post any proof because there isn't any at all.

@bastion

Well sir, I've gone through all my files. If the metric for success is that at least one document has to include the phrase, "white people are racist," then I cannot meet your challenge.

Congratulations! You've won! At least by the narrow definition of victory that you set.

I mean, I already provided you with a link to the San Diego school district training that was given to only white teachers. The one that defined the condition of racism and then said white people were responsible for it? Yeah, you brushed that one off - as I recall - because it was on some "right-wing guy's" site, even though it was the original source document.

The sad thing - for me at least - as I sit here and go through document after document, slide after slide, it's incredibly obvious that this hasn't a damn thing to do with diversity, which WAS your original point: that Trump cancelled all diversity training. No, this has to do with teaching white people to embrace critical race theory, which itself holds that white privilege and white supremacy are endemic to the U.S and that white people perpetuate it by refusing to recognize their privilege.

My point? If you replaced "white" with "black" or "Latino" or "Asian," people would be shouting from the rooftops how racist the training is. But because it's "white," we're not supposed to care.

On a side note, I'd be happy to share everything I have with you, except I haven't the faintest idea how; I had been planning to do screenshots, but that would've made it too easy to take things out of context. I then thought DropBox, but I can't open that up to anonymous users. So, I'll have to comfort myself with the knowledge that you never would've read any of it anyway.

Again, congratulations to you. You showed me up.

@bastion

Oh, one last thing. I did find this - it's not what your challenge required - but I thought it interesting enough to share.

From CNN:

If you're a white person in America, social justice educator Robin DiAngelo has a message for you: You're a racist, pure and simple, and without a lifetime of conscious effort you always will be.

[cnn.com]

And I would observe that Robin DiAngelo is in the "required reading" section for most of these training session documents. So while the words may not be there, even CNN unashamedly admits the sentiment is.

@Alysandir you said "Trump banned critical race theory "training," on the grounds that anything that presupposes that all white people are racist is - by its very nature - racist."

It's not my fault you are failing at this.

Again i'm asking for the primary text to say "all white people are racist" but it doesn't say that does it, no matter how much you want it to say that.

Funny to see the right scream about CRT to the point they have to invent stuff in it to get angry about.

Big James Lindsay fan by any chance?

@Alysandir You really gave up like that? Incredible that you are so invested in this you save all training docs you find to your computer (normal - certainly not obsessive behaviour LOL) but when called on the obvious lies you can't defend yourself.

The funny thing is it will just entrench you further in your views which don't align with reality.

Libertarians eh?

No, not in the least. I boycotted JC Penny over Ellen and I think Amazon is being total douchenozzles about this.