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The more things change the more they stay the same.

Krunoslav 9 Sep 27
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I think most people outside Russia pretty much agrees that Putin shouldn't have invaded. Personally I think the way the Soviet Union broke up was especially unhealthy in the Ukraine. It was obviously not ready for independence and was historically part of Russia. Kiev being the first Russian capital demonstrates how weak the claim that it should have split from Russia is.

Western Europe has always coveted Russia's resources and held Russia in content as a backward nation. This war is of the same sort as the first Crimean War. Pointless and bloody with no possible positive outcome. The Ukraine will still be corrupt and Russia will still be Russia. All we need to make the analogy complete is another ridiculous charge of the light Brigade. Fortunately I don't think Britain will be sending troops to be slaughter this time.

I don't think supporting Ukraine is unwarranted. The mistake was making Russia think it was necessary and then stopping all negotiations. The long historical record of Russia invading it's neighbors regardless of it's historical claims to the Ukraine is a reasonable concern. What is unreasonable is denying Russia has any legitimate security concerns considering how many times the West has invaded Russia. If reasonable policies had been implemented post Soviet collapse we would not be in this mess. But the the West is arrogant and vengeful when it comes to Russia.

wolfhnd Level 8 Sep 27, 2022

"I think most people outside Russia pretty much agree that Putin shouldn’t have invaded."

Outside of Europe and the Anglosphere, virtually every country was subjected to the same treatment Russia is fighting against. Regime changes. bombings and invasions by Americans. Sanctions, bullying, etc. Are you sure they are on the invaders’ side? And I don’t mean Russia. 

"I think the way the Soviet Union broke up was especially unhealthy in Ukraine. It was obviously not ready for independence and was historically part of Russia. Kiev being the first Russian capital demonstrates how weak the claim that it should have split from Russia is.

Ukraine was pretty unhealthy, but so were most of the other countries, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary, etc. Because as soon as the Soviet Union fell, it was ripe for picking. The western powers supported oligarchs and pressured us to adopt style "constitutions" that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, believing that by supporting oligarchs, they could keep corruption in the country, pillage what resources they could, and ensure that the countries were not a threat.They got some of them to enter the EU under either false pretenses or extortion. But that is a long story. 

The thing  that made Ukraine somewhat different was its size and proximity to Russia. Soros was there by his own admission in the early 1990s, setting up an anti-Russia project. He managed to use his NGOs to infiltrate various parts of society and start social engineering. He, for example, tried to ban Russian literature from schools and libraries. Russian language and culture. Rebrand what was clearly Russian culture as some kind of Ukrainian culture. His most successful campaign was persuading Ukrainians that the Holodomor was a Russian attempt to commit genocide against Ukrainians.

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, "to kill by starvation'😉, also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor famine was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933, which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country.

It was part of Stalin's Marxist-Leninism system in the Soviet Union, and it was not only indiscriminately applied throughout the Soviet Union with disastrous results, but also in Cambodia under Pol Pot, China under Mao, and for a time in Yugoslavia under Tito.

The point is that it was not Russians vs. Ukrainians, as Soros made it out to be, but Communists against everyone. But just imagine if, from the mid-90s until today, in schools and western Ukraine, you thought it was Russians who did it to genocide Ukrainians. That means generations of people are now being raised to think this way. 

Then there are the Neo-Nazis. from intimidation, recruitment, and training to youth camps not unlike those of Hitler’s youth camps. 

Ihor Kolomoyskyi was one of the big oligarchs that managed to use mafia-style tactics and Western protection to obtain a lot of power and wealth. He owned banks, telco companies, real estate companies, and media companies like TV stations. He used both the neo-Nazis and other mercenaries to bully his way into taking over business, but he wanted more. He wanted to be president. He could not, because they would never elect him willingly. Ukranians knew who he was. So he cooked up a plan to set up a TV show about the Ukranian President fighting corruption and hired a little-known comedian and actor, Zelensky. I kid you not. He thought he would be president via proxy. But first he needed to build up Zelenksy's brand. 

After the TV show ended, he promoted Zelensky's presidential campaign. And lo and behold.

Meanwhile, while this was happening, in 2014 Americans under the leadership of Victoria Nuland achieved regime change in Ukraine. They send in John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Amy Klobuchar, etc. to go in there and start raping what’s left of the country. 

The Biden Crime Family, the Pelosi Crime Family, and others send their sons and junky friends to no-show jobs in big energy companies because they needed to get rid of mostly Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians.Ukraine's flag is blue and yellow because the country's eastern region is Europe's most valuable grain basket.Blue sky, yellow wheat. 

But people would not leave, so they used the Nazis and Ukrainian military to bomb, torture, and kill people to force them to leave. while launching a terrorist attack on Russia.

The two regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, decided to fight back, and their militia was formed from ordinary citizens who got some help from the Russians. This is understandable since setting up a Sorors + Nazi enclave in eastern Ukraine was unacceptable for Russian security.   

Western powers were expanding NATO into Ukraine, they installed biolabs, and supported ideas of putting US military bases there, even in Crimea, to shut off access to the Black Sea for Russia. Russia held a referendum in Crimea that was Russian anyway, and they got that part back, preventing the building of a military or navy US base there. 

After the western-backed Kiev regime started losing the war, they signed Minsk agreements with France and Germany, I think it's time to recognize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions as autonomous regions inside Ukraine.

In retrospective, they only signed it to buy themselves more time and rearm themselves to attack and take over the eastern part of Ukraine by force. They started building up a major army , talking against joining NATO, even bringing in nukes to Ukraine and supersonic missiles . NATO and the Ukrainian Army resumed shelling of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, killing civilians and preparing an invasion army.

Donetsk and Luhansk then declared themselves independent republics and signed a treaty with Russia to provide protection. Russian forces moved in with Special Military Operations, which had stated goals, to protect the people of Donetsk and Luhansk, demilitarize the Ukrainian/NATO army so they are not a national security threat, and do the same with Nazi elements. Don’t attack civilian infrastructure. 

And they did that. They also moved quickly into Kiev  quickly into Kiev to (a) lock in the Ukrainian military, which felt the need to defend the city and not move in the Donbas region. and b) to pressure Zelensky to sign Minsk-style agreements again. 

Both goals were accomplished. The military was locked in Zelensky's office and was going to negotiate in Belarus goin Turkey. But the western leaders, and specifically Boris Johnson, sent him to kill the deal. And the war dragged on, 

Then in their infinite wisdom and russophobia, the west kicked in the biggest sanctions ever and committed suicide, while helping Russia and the rest of the eastern nations decouple from US hegemony. As a result, a just world order was established.

Now that there is no hope of negotiations, Russia held referendums in the Donetsk and Luhansk republics, they voted to join the Russian Federation, and Russia partly mobilized 300,000 men, to protect this new Russian territory as it would any other Russian territory. 

They also elevated Special Military Operations to Anti- or Counter-Terrorist Operations, providing the military with the manpower and authority to pursue western terrorists.

"I don’t think supporting Ukraine is unwarranted."

They didn’t support Ukraine, they supported corruption in Ukraine for their own ends. People were clearly not supported. And for the record, Ukraine was neither an EU nor NATO member? So how is it warranted. Its also thousands of miles away from the US while its Russian historically and on the doorstep of Russia presently. 

"What is unreasonable is denying Russia has any legitimate security concerns considering how many times the West has invaded Russia. If reasonable policies had been implemented after the Soviet collapse, we would not be in this mess. But the West is arrogant and vengeful when it comes to Russia. "

Yes, they are, and it’s killing the West. They are like this against anyone who does not completely submit to the regime. Whether they are MAGA republicans and Qusi Fascists as Biden calls them, Anti Vaxers. or Hungarians. It does not matter. It's about submission and exploitation. Russia presents the biggest threat, so they are the most aggressive. Although China is in that same category for the same reasons,

@Krunoslav

That is the way I see it but I still think that once a Nation is established some attempt to convince the world at large that there is reason to invade it regardless of justification. Putin didn't do that. Granted with Western censorship the way it is it may be impossible.

@wolfhnd "Granted with Western censorship the way it is it may be impossible."

Yes. As someone commented. Censorship of everyonthing Russian in the west was not to protect western people from Russian propaganda, but to prevent Russian media interfering in Western propaganda, by reporting on the truth.

They also tried to prevent Russians from getting visas to enter EU. Why? Because they don't want people in EU to see that in Russia they have gas, while in Europe they are freezing and that Russia is not what the western media says they are. If they allow people to travel from Russia and to Russia, people will bring back the news of distant land full of gas and oil. They can't have that.

Just how serious they are, look how the US neocons sabotaged the North-stream pipelines to keep Europe away from Russian energy and on the Green Agenda bath, chasing windmills, while freezing to death.

Meanwhile. Here are Russians trolling EU. One guy streamed on Twitch how he is heating his stove for 24 h on cheap gas, and the other Russian was keeping his bathtup full of hot water. Meanwhile under globalist watermelons Europe is entering 15 th century, but far less advanced morality and culturally.

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Will Rome send a legion east? 🤔

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