My understanding of defunding the police is that it is a utopian goal and a maximum demand. That is, it's a vision of a better society to work toward and an initial bargaining position. It won't happen overnight or maybe ever and the activists know that. But it informs the policy solutions. In typical neoliberal style, past attempts to solve abusive policing have involved ineffective, piecemeal reforms and thrown more money at police while defunding the social programs that actually address the root causes of violence. So this turns it on its head: defund the police and fund our communities. In policy form this means getting community control of the police, cops out of schools, and an immediate funding reallocation. More funding may ultimately have to come from the federal government which has the fiscal and monetary slack necessary, but the point is that we're focused on substantive solutions. Unfortunately, most public officials who have made concessions to the movement so far are engaged in budgetary sleights of hand, but what's happening in Minneapolis is interesting.

@WilyRickWiles LOL... fairy time goals... UTOPIAN dreams... wishful ...... thinking. This is all Progressives offer... it is so bad they even have to correct each other and continually move the goalposts and reinterpret what each other is saying... pull the other one.

@Lightman No different than the conservative utopian goal to abolish government aside from police and military. It's a "North Star." A guiding principle. Any comment on the three policies?

@Lightman Never forget.

@WilyRickWiles Thanks for the clarification. It's been extremely confusing what the actual plan is based off of snippets of news headlines. Greater service or change of some kind for mentality unstable or programs for actual rehabilitation for some offenders have been seen, just not high enough levels imo.

I tend to lean more toward better funding and training for our officers rather than having a seperate group designated for specific problems. My husband is in the Army, and I have police officers as well as service members in my family and friends from all branches of service. Many of them have done great things for their communities and it does tend to become more of a personal topic for me rather than an objective one.

I forgot to mention in my initial post that one of the most abused systems in policing lies with the unions imo. Military personnel are held to a higher level of personal accountability which is lacking at a local level. While I'm absolutely for job security as well as saftey, these unions too often shield repeat offenders as well as relocate them without disclosing their records.

I think I'm kind of understanding defund a bit more. I still wouldn't go with defund and go with better training as well as additional hiring of these types of community programs you stated. Also, a examination of police unions. This may still be a personal bias, but I have seen as well as participate in community volunteer groups with service members. So, I know community oriented service exists. Just not enough.

can't watch the video Rick... not available in Oz... but if it is your usual take this will be more of you claiming all Republicans believe something or back something only 1 person does...

@WilyRickWiles Oh and have you got something concrete re that "north Star" claim?
BTW real Conservatives don't base policies on daydreams.
You want me to answer the questions you have to ask them properly... what 3 policies re we talking about now?

@Lightman You're really not big on reading comprehension are you. Here you go: "In policy form this means getting community control of the police, cops out of schools, and an immediate funding reallocation."

@WilyRickWiles Oh I read that... why would I answer that its a half formed thought if you re lucky.
CHAZ was their example of defunding the police btw.

@Lightman In Chicago we have a piece of legislation for community control of the police. Do you want to read the bill?

@WilyRickWiles You keep cherry picking... do you understand the term?

@WilyRickWiles Spot on.

Watch the video.

@WilyRickWiles after you explain why you think what you do... I've been over this topic days ago... must have been 3 or 4 topics on it. I may even have started one myself.
Is it because you disagree with what these people say? Many Democrats are self deluded... are you a rusted on voter ie only ever voted for the one party? Isn't that kind dumb?

@Lightman I echo her argument that the author and signatories of the letter are conflating ordinary and marginalized people using their freedom of speech to disagree with and challenge powerful elite institutional figures, with censorship. They are trying to disqualify ordinary people from having standing in public discourse. They are the "white moderates" Dr. King criticized, attempting to slow social change that threatens their interests. Before you again accuse me of being a blind Democrat, these are people like Biden. His supporters made similar criticisms of "Bernie Bros."

I also echo her point that several signatories are hypocritical. E.g. Bari Weiss conducted a campaign to get people fired for supporting Palestinian liberation. These are people who want to make it illegal to boycott Israel. How is that freedom of speech?

I'd add that online outrage is a function of the anarchistic community of Twitter, and that when people get fired because of it, that is a function of capitalist institutions acting in their own interests. Neither are functions of leftist values. Often that works against the left, but sometimes it works toward social change. The solution is not to gird against institutional change, but to conduct change in a principled manner.

I'll also add that I am pretty much a free speech absolutist.

@WilyRickWiles You know why most people hate Progressives, and why they will always be minority...?
Because they are not Conservatives who value the past and learn from history, because they simply want change for its own sake and are not bright enough to seek change or compromise that is rational and do-able... they instead make changes that have to be fixed, corrected or reversed... to undo the regressive mistakes they so often make.
Progressives /liberals re the curse of the world...

@WilyRickWiles Are you going to answer these?
Is it because you disagree with what these people say?
Many Democrats are self deluded...
Are you a rusted on voter ie only ever voted for the one party?
Isn't that kind dumb?

@Lightman What changes are you talking about? We've been doing nothing but undoing for 50 years. The civil rights movement was halted and reversed.

Funny how you claim the mantle of rationalism but fail to make a counterargument.

@Lightman You're not a deep reader, are you? Should I just join you in childish name calling?

@WilyRickWiles Time to answer the questions and time to face reality...
The two opening quotes to the video are garbage... these aren't protests they are riots, these are not thoughtful debates asking for sensible change... they are anarchistic, violent, clueless, modes of intimidation, wanting change without thought of the consequences without seeking compromise or debate... that is what the Harper's letter points out.
Since when is rioting, looting, arson, murder, destruction of property etc, etc, etc... Progressive? It is Regressive as the vast majority of Progressive ideas are.
It is the Progressive Left that are cancelling people and stifling debate. Progressives cannot tolerate dissent.
They re the ones silencing debate only fool thinks it is the other way round.
How can any sensible sane person let alone a political party, support this behaviour? That is insanity.

@WilyRickWiles Oh dear you once again resort to empty rhetoric unable to debate the facts. Or face reality.
How bout answering my simple questions Rick... they are not that hard.
Are you a rusted on Democrat voter?
Have you ever voted for another party?

@Lightman Read and engage with my answer or I'm afraid I'm going to have to block you for wasting my time one too many times.

@WilyRickWiles I have.... you as usual deflect insult and run away...
Now you intend to block me simply because you disagree with me and can't win an argument. tsk, tsk, tsk.
Typical of a rusted on Progressive, can't handle dissent.

@Lightman I wrote three paragraphs and you had nothing to say in response but unprompted name calling. You're just a second rate troll.

@WilyRickWiles you wrote 3 paragraphs... lol.... maybe I have a life away from the computer, I'm not here at your beck and call y' know... learn some patience and stop assuming... you know what happens when you ASSume.
Unlike you I don't TROLL... have you looked up at my very fulsome answer under the topic video? No?
and still you refuse to answer my 2 simple questions... pot kettle black.
Why is it Progressives alwys blame others for what they do?

@Lightman You will find what you seek if you actually read before you write, and read to understand.

@WilyRickWiles Oh puhlese try your superiority schtick on someone who cares

@WilyRickWiles Time to answer the questions and time to face reality...
The two opening quotes to the video are garbage... these aren't protests they are riots, these are not thoughtful debates asking for sensible change... they are anarchistic, violent, clueless, modes of intimidation, wanting change without thought of the consequences without seeking compromise or debate... that is what the Harper's letter points out.
Since when is rioting, looting, arson, murder, destruction of property etc, etc, etc... Progressive? It is Regressive as the vast majority of Progressive ideas are.
It is the Progressive Left that are cancelling people and stifling debate. Progressives cannot tolerate dissent.
They re the ones silencing debate only fool thinks it is the other way round.
How can any sensible sane person let alone a political party, support this behaviour? That is insanity.

I wrote this ages go... you've been playing the man ever since and refusing to engage and you have the gall to call me a 2nd rate Troll... pot kettle black.
You haven't even bothered to look at the post I told you bout under the video...
If you did instead of continuing on like demented troll yourself, you'd see I more than answered the video re the letter. I disagree with your pc leftist progressive take on the video and the woman's misguided biased interpretations.

I'm still waiting for answers you have tried to void... you need to drop the threatening and name calling nonsense.