Excellent! Good memory.

Got it - my point was the + meaning Everyone Else - which includes - well - Everyone Else - rendering the classification meaningless. My inherent problem is this... Check out: [whataboutjoy.com]

@JeffHoneyager I know some lesbians and they told me the (+) meant pedophiles. They don't like it and don't want to be associated with them.

@FEWI it does not mean pedophiles. They are wrong.

@JacksonNought oh but there is a push to included MAPS....

@tracycoyle by Right Wing bigots. The bigots who love to claim there is a slippery slope that allowing gay people to exist will lead to state-sanctioned pedophilia. One random person on Twitter, most likely a Right Wing troll, will use the term MAP and claim pedophilia is part of LGBTQ+, and then all of the Right Wing reactionary pundits and commentators will point to it and scream "see this is what we have been saying all along, we must jail all gay people now!"

You never see Right Wingers complain that allowing the Christian "Good News Club" to operate in schools and have access to children is a slippery slope, considering the rampant pedophilia in the church. You never see Right Wingers complain that we should investigate Right Wing politicians more, considering people like Gaetz, Jordan, Trump, etc, have been accused of engaging in or supporting pedophilia, or there are top-ranking Republican officials like convicted pedophile former Republic Speaker Dennis Hastert. Not to mention the Republicans keep trying to reduce or even remove the age of consent or minimum age for marriage. Or we keep seeing more and more Christian pedophiles exposed, like the Duggars.

But no, it's only the LGBTQ+ community that must be degenerates and stopped lest the slope get too slippery. You said yourself you are trans, and you reject pedophiles - clear example of it not being supported.

@JacksonNought Yes I reject pedophiles, of any stripe. And I also reject the LGB"T"Q+ community label though I am B. T doesn't belong in the same group. That was my original point - T is a different category.

Generally, every example you gave, I have at some point personally rejected. Often before the accusations were made because I personally felt 'off' about them. I stand apart.

My brother was abused by a priest. I had already rejected the RC Church for other reasons, but I personally didn't like the 'priests or nuns' and can separate my rejection of the institution from my dislike of the people (or my like of an institution - like the United States - while disliking the people involved, ie politicians/government).

You dislike the smears of the Left by those you complain that do the same thing on the Right. Such is life. Continue to defend organizations and attack others. I will support, or not, based on the ORGANIZATION's stated intentions. I'll reject people based on their own behavior. And not just on accusations.

@JacksonNought Oh and btw, there are self proclaimed MAPS (adults that have sexual preferences for children) all over the net, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok that claim the LGB"T"Q+ label represents them also. I don't need some Rightwing commentator to point them out.

@tracycoyle

First, you may not like the T part of LGBTQ+, but it fits. It is not some sort of political group or movement, it just identifies people who are not part of the societal norm when it comes to certain aspects. I tend to prefer the term GSRM, though many people don't understand it without explanation. It stands for Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minority. That covers aspects of being transgender, intersex, homosexual, pansexual, asexual, aromantic, poly, etc. It removes the need for constant letters. Trans people are very much part of that minority, and played a significant part in gay rights.

there are self proclaimed MAPS that claim the LGBTQ+

Ok, so? Let's assume these people are genuine and not just some Right Wing trolls. Why does it matter? Are your everyday LGBTQ+ people claiming to welcome pedophiles with open arms, and fighting for their rights too? Or is it a group of deranged people trying to latch on to a group? Avowed Nazis claim to be part of the Trump movement, as well as Oath Keepers who have been convicted of sedition. Does that mean Trump supporters approve of them, and Trump is a Nazi?

@JacksonNought My point is that the T, which once represented transsex, a .4% population, morphed into and was replaced by transgender, which over time has EXCLUDED transsex. T now represents the gender non-conforming. And like the sexual non-conforming of the LGB, seeks political power, not to gain acceptance, but to change society.

Unfortunately, it morphed into something deranged. Intersectionality/social justice, blossoming out of the LGB"T" movement has ignored every reasonable approach to minority acceptance and rammed an idea so insanely false, you have to wonder if lack of IQ is actually the common denominator.

I don't ask others to follow my example of rejecting the LGB"T" label, but it is happening. It does not represent me. It does not fit. I don't seek political power to change society. THAT is what the LGB'T' community has become, no longer seeking acceptance, but the power to change society. 3% trying to force the 97% to conform to it's position.

@JacksonNought Last point. Transex is not a minority like LGB. It is a SECOND category error. One: it is not a sexual minority. Two: it is a TEMPORARY condition, not an identity.

I was born with a condition. At 35 it was corrected. I live with the "scar", but the condition is 'cured' to the furthest possible by medical science. I function fully within general society. THAT is the nature of the prefix TRANS.

@tracycoyle cis and trans are basically Latin terms meaning "on this side" and "on the other side of". Cis-gender means you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. Trans-gender means you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. That is why transgender could apply to an AMAB who identifies as a woman, an AFAB who identifies as a man, and a person who identifies as non-binary or gender-fluid. THAT is the nature of the prefix TRANS.

Trans-sex and trans-gender are pretty much one in the same. It means you do not identify with the sex / gender you were assigned at birth. Now you could make a distinction that one of those groups has gone through various forms of gender-confirming care, ranging from puberty-blockers, hormones, sex-reassignment surgery, etc, vs just socially transitioning. That doesn't change that their mind doesn't match their assigned sex / gender.

I don't know what you mean by "excluded transsex". Could you elaborate? Gender non-conforming is specifically related to trans. It doesn't mean cis people who just don't conform to stereotypical American gender roles, such as feminine men or tomboys. Despite what Right Wingers will tell you, no, people aren't trying to convince butch women that they are trans.

People in the LGBTQ+ community aren't trying to get political power or change society in the way that perhaps the NRA or Evangelical Right are - they really do just want acceptance. That means not being treated as second class citizens, where they can be fired or denied housing or unable to patronize any businesses or even denied healthcare just because of who they are.

You say your condition was "corrected" and "cured". Do you really think the leaders of the Right Wing, or many people on this website, would agree with you? Or would they call you delusional and living a lie and a freak?

You think LGBTQ+ rights were rammed down people's throats and insane. I wonder if you think the same of Black people being freed or segregation ending?

@JacksonNought

Trans-gender means you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth.

And that is the category error. I've yet to hear a transgender kid tell me they hate their natal sex/genitals. They hate their "gender". This is not resolved by surgical intervention and the majority of the detransitioners I have listened to, and many of the teens claiming the need to transition, DO NOT improve under HRT. A red flag for anyone treating them.

Trans-sex and trans-gender are pretty much one in the same.

Nope, not even close to being the same. Being gender non-conforming is a societal issue. Being transsex is a personal thing.

HRT and surgery help to bring congruity between my gender and my biological/physical body. Saying you are a different gender, and surface changing your appearance via clothes and role preferences, isn't changing your gender.

I don't know what you mean by "excluded transsex". Could you elaborate?

WPATH was the replacement organization to the Harry Benjamin Society for Transsexual Care. The most recent iteration of the their standards of care doesn't even address transsexuals. The word is gone. Most of the changes in the current version deal with non-binary patients.

Transsex is term most of the younger generation seeks to use in place of transsexual because they think 'sexual' is equated with sexuality in modern discussions. Like intersex, transsex deals with the incongruity of gender and biological sex.

And most transsex[ual] people believe that 1) you need gender dsyphoria to be considered transsex, 2) the correct way of address GD is to medically transition.

Transgenders often refute those points, calling gender a social construct and transness as a social issue rather than medical one. Shutting the transsexual out of social environments (online) because they consider the above points to be transphobic.

Do you really think the leaders of the Right Wing, or many people on this website, would agree with you? Or would they call you delusional and living a lie and a freak?

Whether they do or not is not relevant to me. I am a classical liberal - I consider the individual to be sovereign, that I get to make choices about myself regardless of the majority (or even a minority). I don't "identify" as a condition. It would like having someone say pronouns are tumor and tumorous because I have cancer.

I have spent the last several years in RW spaces trying to educate - with a little success - because 99% of people don't understand gender identity issues. And the few of us that do, lack a context to adequately explain it to the rest.

You think LGBTQ+ rights were rammed down people's throats and insane.

I think the rights originally sought by the LGB community were worth fighting for, and for many, in most situations, were successful. The effort to change the LGB community into a social justice army is what has become insanity. Social justice, if taken literally, would destroy society - it would be a tyranny of the first order. THAT is what is being rammed down people's throat.

@tracycoyle

I think the rights originally sought by the LGB community were worth fighting for, and for many, in most situations, were successful. The effort to change the LGB community into a social justice army is what has become insanity. Social justice, if taken literally, would destroy society - it would be a tyranny of the first order. THAT is what is being rammed down people's throat.

In many cases those rights still do not exist. Same-sex marriage was only recently legalized in 2015, and as we saw with Roe v Wade, it can quite literally be turned back overnight, especially with the extremely conservative Catholic Supreme Court. In fact, multiple SCOTUS justices have voiced their desire to do so. Same goes for sodomy laws, which were only ruled unconstitutional in 2003 (for same-sex), and can also be rolled back instantly with justices having said they want to. We constantly have court cases because "LGB" people were denied equal access in commerce and housing and employment. Hell, there's currently a SCOTUS case because a woman "hypothetically" wanted to start selling wedding website templates and didn't want gay people to be allowed to purchase them. California only recently passed SB 145 in 2020, which before its passing allowed a 24 year old man to have vaginal intercourse with a 14 year old girl without being registered as a sex offender, while at the same time forcing an 18 year old man having sex with his 17 year old boyfriend to be on the sex offender registry.

All of these incremental steps are because the "LGB" community hasn't stopped fighting for social justice and equality, and they are constantly in danger of having their rights taken away. If gay people just acquiesced and said they didn't need to fight for rights anymore, it would be no time before they were once again thrown in jail for who they were.

Look at the culture war currently going on around acknowledging that gay people even exist. The Right wants to fire every "LGB" teacher and burn any book that acknowledges gay people exist and jail drag performers. You have state-sanctioned censorship when the governor of Florida retaliates against a corporation for using their free speech to disagree with an anti-gay bill. There is a resurgence of gay panic, which you are even participating in, linking "LGB" with pedophilia.

Should women have stopped seeking rights once they were allowed to vote? Should Black people have stopped seeking rights once slavery was over?

What is being rammed down people's throats is that people are equal and that different kinds of people exist. That is a fact, which last I heard don't care about feelings - like the feelings of Conservatives who get offended that these people exist.

I've yet to hear a transgender kid tell me they hate their natal sex/genitals. They hate their "gender". This is not resolved by surgical intervention and the majority of the detransitioners I have listened to, and many of the teens claiming the need to transition, DO NOT improve under HRT. A red flag for anyone treating them.

So because you haven't personally heard it, it isn't true? Yes, there are some trans people who do not care about their body. There are also a lot who mentally and physically feel uncomfortable and can only be cured by having their body changed to match their mentality. You seem to fall into that category. I don't see why you won't acknowledge that other people do as well, even if they use the label "transgender". Not everyone is priveledged enough to be able to afford, or legally even acquire, surgery to change their body to conform to their gender identity. There are politicians trying to ban this, and even take away HRT drugs from people already on them. Should those people be forced to suffer in silence?

I also don't know what studies you've been looking at, but all the ones I see make it very clear that puberty blockers and HRT do indeed help people with their body dysmorphia and prevent depression and suicidal ideation.

You seem to be falling for the Right Wing propaganda that some burly man with a full beard is going to put on a wig and try to go into the female bathroom and claim they are a woman and expose themselves to children. Trans people are under enough of a constant threat to want to put themselves under more of a risk. They just want to be able to use the bathroom in peace. It's more likely that a big burly man with a full beard will go into the women's bathroom because they are a trans man, cis-female, and the law says they must go in there - then possibly be a victim of violence by "protectors". It's more likely that a butch cis-woman will be accosted trying to go into the women's bathroom, because they don't look "feminine" enough for some people. It's more likely a trans-woman will be forced to go into the men's bathroom and be assaulted. How many times do we see trans women murdered because men flew into a fit of rage upon finding out they were trans and feeling embarrassed that they were sexually attracted to them.

It's not surprising, it's coming from the same people who spread a lie that schools were putting in litter boxes for furries.

@JacksonNought When a court enshrines something, it is possible a later court will overturn it. When a legislature creates a law, it is possible a later legislature will change it. That is the way societies change. What YOU want, and SO DO I, is that people change and accept others different from themselves as sovereign individuals worthy of respect. You can't legislate or sue people to be that way.

I've been in the trans community for 40 years. I have been a transsexual, known personally maybe 100, interacted with close to a 1000, and given I was one of the first 8,000 or so (on the planet) to ever have sex reassignment surgery, I've learned what we have in common and what our general diagnosis needs for success.

I also don't know what studies you've been looking at, but all the ones I see make it very clear that puberty blockers and HRT do indeed help people with their body dysmorphia and prevent depression and suicidal ideation.

Yes. They do help. When the person actually has gender dsyphoria, NOT body dysmorphia. The difference can be subtle - but it makes a world of difference in treatment. And ONLY therapy can sort it out. Too many therapists are NOT making the effort because the culture is that you have to accept what a person says (even when they are a teen or younger). YES, those of us with gender incongruity know very early - but when it DOESN'T happen till later, till puberty or even later, those are flags that need to be paid attention to.

I don't fear the scenario you (and correctly note right wingers promote) note about bathrooms. The very rare cases do not need to force the issue. I transitioned in the late 80s and my use of women's bathrooms twice provoked a POLICE response. Fortunately, the police were great and I was not even detained once I explained the situation - they even got away from those that were upset with my presence. Yet, I don't need a law that says I can use the bathroom, or can't.

I don't believe forcing a business owner to serve someone they don't want to is an appropriate use of laws, and yes, I am one of those hated people that thinks it was wrong even back in the 60s. Can we change society without the force of government? God, I hope so. Because government, once given the power, can use it in ways we most certainly do not intend.

I don't generally agree with your positions, but I respect your desires and efforts. I'd offer you free copies of my books: An Assertion of Right - the foundation of rights; Life Change, Discussions in the Trans Community - discussions from trans people from 1989-1990 (still relevant); and my current when it available: Gender Incongruity, What Happens When We Don't Fit - a year by year description of a transsexuals awaking and growth.

I don't expect to change your mind, the goals you want are noble, the methods problematic.