You are so very right, Naomi. On both counts. A complicated issue to be sure, and left out of the 'debate' is the fate of Christians. It may not fully be resolved until the King of the Jews, the Author of the Christian faith, comes back to straighten us all out. Even so, come quickly Lord!

@dmatic I don't agree. Yitzak Rabin (until he was killed by a fanatic of his own side) used to say you should make war as though you weren't negotiating, and you should negnotiate in parallel as though you weren't making war. I'm tired of this "Jesus is coming any time now" as an excuse for not fixing the Middle East, climate change, and most of the rest of the world's problems. I wanna see the world of Star Trek Earth. Problems fixed. By us. We can do it, if we somehow give up tribalism and short-sighted thinking.

It's the long game we need. Somebody's milennialist religion is no help. I don't care if you think Jesus is coming tomorrow. Your taxes are still due today, and you're still getting a ticket for parking sideways in two spaces. Cause the rest of us live here, too, and we're tired of this shit.

@dmatic, @Babou
I am a non-believer, as I grew up in a secular environment, but I have always understood that religious belief is a very personal thing, so I respect that one shall lead one's life as one's faith dictates. I shall leave it like that.
I learned that among the Palestinians who were systematically targeted and expelled by Israeli forces during the 1948 Nakbathe were Christians, and today, they are denied access to Jerusalem by the Zionist government. Israel-Palestine conflict is generally perceived as Judeo-Christian vs Muslim, and this perception excludes the existence of the Palestinian Christians who are caught up in the middle of it all - because they don't fit in the narrative...? Hence my comment "Palestinian Christians are conveniently forgotten". What do you think?

@Babou You are free to go ahead and fix it.

@Babou, @Naomi Everybody is a 'believer' in their own 'religion'. Religion is simply ones way of life, and everyone has a way of life, that they think right in their own eyes. Truth is. Falsity ain't. It is time to love one another.

Yet, no one has the 'right' to mistreat others 'wrongly'.

Yes, but does Israel have the right to defend itself with our money-- $3.8 billion a year. More than we give the entire rest of the world COMBINED.

As for the war of aggression crap, it doesn't justify keeping land forever. You know the Japanese and Germans were guilty of wars of aggression against the US in 1941. Do we still keep their land, suppress their governments, and settle on it? No, after we had de-fanged them, we gave it back.

One of the things that makes America a great country. (As also that Moon landing 50 years ago yesterday). The US did some nasty colonialism in the Philippines, but relative to what we could have done, we've been quite restrained.

@dmatic but it can be argued Israel isn't mistreating them wrongly, they merely engaged in the war to defend itself and took land to protect itself from further attacks in the future. Self protection is not wrong.

@JimbobNE It is, when it lasts too long. The Soviet Union took land after WW II to protect itself from further acts of aggression. The WHOLE Eastern block of countries. They never DID intend to give it back (including E. Germany).

What Israel is doing now is farce and lie. The West Bank isn't going to keep Israel from being invaded by Syria. Come on. Israel's jets, tanks, and nukes assure that. The West Bank has nothing to do with it. The idea it being taken over for "self protection" is self-serving lie.

@Babou no the Soviet Union was not invaded by Poland or Yugoslavia or east Germany. Israel was invaded by Muslim nations who have sworn to kill them and commit genocide to rid the world of Jews. They were attacked and quite frankly the Muslims losing that land can also be considered war reparations. If you invade a nation and lose, lose some land, might think twice next time. The Israelis are in a fight for survival. They now have control and have the only chunk of land in the middle east which can be considered free. They should keep all the land they have. Bad people lost, too bad. I have no sympathy for the Muslim nations in the middle east. They supported nazi germany in world war II, they support terrorists all over the world, killing people means nothing to those brutal regimes and I won't criticize a nation which was attacked from keeping some land after they beat the aggressors asses.

@JimbobNE Actually, I was not taking sides. I agree with Naomi in a previous post. It is a very complicated issue. Would be happy to talk about it though. But, I do stand by my statement that nobody has the 'right' to treat others 'wrongly'. Do you disagree?

@dmatic That I would certainly agree with. Then you get into the deeper issue of what is right and wrong - lots of fun discussions there

@JimbobNE It gets very complicated. The Stern Gang (Lehi) collaborated with the Nazis against the British, in order to kick the Brits out of what was then Palastine. One reason why the Brits have never been so fawningly happy with Israel as the US has. They didn't blow up our hotels and trains and assassinate our minister of state in the area (who by the way was not nearly the anti-zionist he was made out to be).

[timesofisrael.com]

@Babou I agree the violent anti-Semitism started brewing with the creation of the Israeli state. I just look now and see what we have. We have a number of states who look at freedom with a vivid anger and we have a religious fight in which everyone seems to think they have a right to Palestinian lands, Jewish lands and Muslim lands. Just look how quickly the USA jumped in to the First Gulf War when grampy Bush thought oil could be in trouble. There is no solution for the middle east. People have been killing each other for millennia and will continue to do so. As much as I admired Carter for his deal with Israel and Egypt, it is just a little pause and there will be another major war and given the nukes and countries in the middle east, it will be a God awful butchery and I don't think it will be contained in the area. I don't know when or why it will start but I am certain it will.

@JimbobNE Interesting. Another major war, to be won by whom in your estimation? No solution for the Middle East? That is depressing, too.

@JimbobNE, @Babou I read the article you linked but did not see any reference to the Stern Gang collaborating with the Nazis, unless it didn't register in my brain. But, you are very right about the evil perpetrated preceding the so-called Israeli State's birth.

@dmatic oh, google it.