I once wrote a blog post in which I wrestled with such issues. It was entitled, "The American Revolution: Was it Biblical?" and can be read here:

[reformedbaptistblog.com]

Perhaps I should make it a separate post here on IDW. It might well generate some interesting discussion.

@KeithThroop When Paul was under house arrest, and considering what happened to him(for what reason?),
how do you see this scripture outworking?
I don't see it. I certainly know God ALLOWS certain to get in, maybe so their cup of iniquity will fill faster.

It is agreed that King Ahab was an evil king, so that writing did not apply.

I tend to follow Jesus's writings here that said to LOVE your enemy.
Canada has been destroyed now and a lot was the head of the party in power. He HATES Christianity, extols Islam, communism, terrorism.
These verses in Roman's 13 do not apply.
Have YOU ever seen this verse outwork as it's written?

@2FollowHim I'm not altogether sure at this point what you're asking for or how you think the words of Romans 13 do not apply. In the article I linked above I interacted with various views with regard to Romans 13 as to whether it allows Christians to take part in revolt against governing authorities, and I also outlined the types of situations in which Christian would not only be permitted to practice civil disobedience but would, in fact, be required to do so. I think I would need a more specific question in order to know how to answer.

@KeithThroop While I personally do not revolt or do disobedience, it is bcuz Jesus said 'love your enemies'
not bcuz of this part of Romans13
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil

This is NOT TRUE in Canada.

This verse simply WON'T occur in Canada:

do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister

So I don't see this.
God certainly ALLOWS WICKED leaders, eg. the CCP, Canada

And also during Paul's house arrest. Paul received NO MERCY.

So, while I am grateful for much of Paul's writings, he went wrong himself, which I totally can understand, him not being God.

There's not TWO sides: acquiesce or rebel.

There's forced compliance while I draw attention to evil perpetrated.

Do you see this?

That war in US is far too complex, likely much still hidden.

It's a kind of persecution if it's too hard. Jesus said FLEE.

@2FollowHim I think we must understand Paul as speaking of the role of rulers in God's plan as a general rule. He certainly knew himself how wicked rulers could be when he wrote the Epistle to the Romans. After all, Nero was most likely the Emperor at the time. But Paul also knew that, as a general rule, most Roman citizens could expect to be treated fairly if they followed the law. In fact, he himself exercised his rights as a Roman citizen at times in order to avail himself of fair treatment, even if he also at times refused to avail himself of such rights and accepted unfair treatment.

As for your situation in Canada, do most law abiding citizens get arrested or end up in jail? Or can they expect that, if they follow the law, they will not be arrested or jailed? I would assume that, even as bad as things are, most people can expect to go through life without any significant run-ins with the law so long as they follow the law. Such is the type of situation Paul had in mind. He knew full well that rulers could be wicked and mistreat people, for he himself had experienced such mistreatment from various local rulers on a frequent basis, mainly because they thought he was breaking the law due to their misunderstanding of his faith and his preaching. So, he of all people was not espousing some Pollyannaish view of government.

As for whether Paul was wrong when writing as an Apostle of Jesus, I do not think this is a possibility given my own view of Scripture as the Word of God. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. I would at least encourage you, however, to consider Paul's writings in their proper overall context when assessing what he meant.

I would also encourage you to consider the larger context of Jesus' teachings as well. For example, you seem to think that His teaching that we should love our enemies precludes civil disobedience. But this is far from the case. In fact, sometimes love for our enemies may actually require civil disobedience. Sometimes disobeying a government order or law could be the most loving thing to do. Consider, for example, Jesus' refusal to follow the Sabbath laws which the religious authorities of His day -- authorities who were allowed their ruling power over such matters by their Roman overlords. They accused Him of breaking their law by healing sick people on the Sabbath or by allowing His disciples to pick grain to eat on the Sabbath, but He deliberately disobeyed these laws out of love for others, often apparently without any thought as to whether they were His friends or His foes. He also openly insulted the ruler Herod (which was considered a criminal act) when Herod planned to have Him killed unjustly. We could add clear examples from His Apostles as well, who disobeyed the authorities when they were ordered to stop preaching the Gospel. They apparently saw no conflict between such disobedience and Jesus' teaching to love their enemies, and this is because they understood well the context and meaning of Jesus' teachings.

@KeithThroop The first things Trudeau did was make LGBTQ, beastiality all legal, acceptable, completely free abortion up to 9 months, then legalize drugs.
Are you getting the picture?
Law abiding citizens are fined huge amounts for going to, say an EMPTY park for exercise, no signs posted. While criminals are exempted.
Rebel news, True North, Toronto Sun report.
Rest of media was bought off with millions of our dollars.
It's QUITE upside down. People who speak against Islam may be fined, a lot, imprisoned.

Canadians mostly are dumbed down, drugs, sex, alcohol, porn. All good in Canada.
Jesus did not disobey ANY laws. Jesus kept the law PERFECTLY.

Paul wrote excellent things but what I quoted never happened and is not true.
Paul is not Jesus. Paul disobeyed the Holy Spirit.
Paul was not God.

Would you ever be able to APPY Romans 13 to China?
They ARE a big terror to those speaking truth.

I'm saying verses 3 and 4 are wrong.
Again, King Ahab and Jezebel show there ARE totally wicked rulers.

Antichrist and The Beast will be utterly wicked.

Paul was not harmed UNTIL they just came and cut off his head.
Then there's Herod.

These verses don't stand up.
Much of Paul's writings do very well. These are just 2 verses. But they are wrong.

God allows destroyers. Not bcuz they reward good but so people SIDE with or against them.

If you can show just how these verses do work, have worked, that will be good.

I don't find it's either, or. We are a mixture, sometimes right, often not.
Paul took a VOW, shaved his head!! Totally wrong.
We must not deify Paul.

@2FollowHim Yes, Paul was eventually executed for civil disobedience, and this was because, as I said above, sometimes civil disobedience is the right thing to do. And civil disobedience is sometimes the right thing to do because sometimes rulers make wicked laws that we cannot follow and at the same time still follow God's commands. The Apostle Paul and his fellow Apostles followed Jesus' teachings in this regard. As I said, the same Apostle who wrote Romans also held to a view of civil disobedience when necessary, as did t e other Apostles. We must take all of their writings in Scripture into account when reading various parts of it in order to get a balanced picture of their views. So, for example, when the Lord Jesus taught us to "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mk. 12:17 NKJ), He expected that we would NOT render unto Caesar the things that are God's. This is why early Christians disobeyed the imperial order to worship Caesar as a god. They knew they were to obey the government's laws only insofar as those laws did not require them to disobey God's laws. This is something that Christians in both Canada and the U.S. are already beginning to face now. None of this is incompatible with the basic principles taught in Romans 13 ... IF those general principles are understood as such and are not taken out of the larger context in which they are given.

As for the implied accusation that I am somehow deifying Paul, I can only say that such an accusation could not be farther from the truth and completely misunderstands my point of view. With that said, unless you have a specific question for me, I will allow whatever you choose to post next to be the last word between us on this matter, since it is apparent to me that we will most likely only keep talking past one another.

@KeithThroop What civil disobedience did Paul do?
Roman's 13, verse 3 and 4 cannot be considered correct, and I have NEVER found even ONE example.

So Paul broke his OWN teachings?

Here?. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

This is ONLY true of REASONABLE leaders, NOT evil, not wicked.

I'd say it is 100% TRUE for Trump, and not true for
CCP.

That does NOT mean I disobey, but they praise evil.
They reward other communists, imprison those standing for God. They use those for live organ harvesting.

Roman's 13, 3,4 is not correct. It CANNOT be followed as correct.
Please read it.
Paul took a VOW, (wrong), shaved his head (wrong),
and these verses are wrong.

We have to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God.

Form a Christian point of view, we will have to wait until the Lord Jesus Christ returns and establishes the New Heavens and the New Earth. I think the U.S. Founders were simply attempting the best we can do in the meantime, and the Leftists are doing their level best to wreck even that.

@KeithThroop Too many payoffs, threats on family.
I believe leaders should be single. Like a calling.