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I'm curious and would like your input on perceptions of mental health problems.

When you think of mental health problems, what/who do you picture in your mind's eye? What are the problems/symptoms of that person? What are the risks those people represent?

Thanks ahead of time for helping me understand this. I'm hoping that this thread can help with understanding for others, too, because many people have very limited experience in dealing with the mentally ill.

ObiRonMoldy 7 July 29
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I do not think of any one person. Some people do. They think of someone they know or a historical figure. Maybe they think of someone they read a book about or a character in a movie. I think according to my training. I have training in cognitive and behavioral therapy. I have extensive reading in development and attachment. I have read information on life narratives and meta-narratives. I have read and really appreciate psychodynamic theory and psychoanalytic theory. I like object relations a lot. I say all that to say that mental illness or mental health have gone through a change in definitional concepts. We no longer spear of people being out of touch with reality as the sole indicator of a problem with people being falling closer to reality and farther from reality. Instead, we speak of dysfunction. We moved from the idea that a person's cognitions showed illness if they were farther from reality and so, in all training, therapists were expected to have excellent abstract and symbolic reasoning. In order to gain entrance into many therapy programs one used to be required to take the Miller Analogies Test (MAT). In addition, a great deal of logic was taught. It was felt that most people who came into to see a therapist were not so bad off that they could not be reasoned with. A lot of people were seen as having more of a moderate to slight emotional disturbance and so most therapists were assumed to see that alone. That was not a bad assumption. Today, however, with the medical field believing that a perfect one-to-one correspondence exists for chemistry to mental function, we have moved away from analyzing symptomology apart from chemistry. Now, this is very good in some ways, but it cannot be based on a perfect or imperfect correspondence between neural chemistry and mental state. In fact, the actual studies show and prove over and over again that mental state is not in any correspondence to neural biochemistry. Reverse diagnosis with medication is a cause for malpractice and a lot of implied diagnosis is based on broad studies of chemistry and the specific medication effects. We know that the medication has a broad effect and will cause calming in most instances. The medications given can increase certain neural chemical concentrations or reduce them, but that is a far cry from establishing that the neural chemical is causing the emotional problem. Most people do not want to think this through and they want a way of calming themselves or dealing with depression or bipolar, etc., so they willingly take a pill. Pills do not take care of problems of meaning and almost all problems of life are attached to a person's list of significant meanings for them. Everyone has a list like that and there is evidence from empirically informed studies to demonstrate that such a list is operational. It has cognitive structure or pattern or is established as a grid. Once that grid develops its key characteristics it is used to validate the identity. That functional aspect makes the cognitive grid more difficult to address because, by strengthening the identity, it stabilizes the psychological or emotional energy that the person is working with. In a practical way, the psychological or emotional energy a person is working with forms an economy inside of them. It has to be shared internally between the Id, the Ego, and the Superego. They way that it does this causes or relieves problems of intensity. If you think of the Id, the Ego and the Superego as banks that loan energy to each other based on trust, you can see the problem if a person has experienced manipulation in their early years (as this will impact attachment and a sense of self and others), abuse or neglect. When abuse, manipulation or neglect occurs early and is characteristic of the attachment relationships, the economy of psychological energy or emotional energy is not developed well and what usually happens is that the Id (from which all the psychological energy comes from) withholds the psychological energy from the Ego and the Superego. This makes the Ego seek for support external to itself and leads to the behaviors that are identified colloquially as "very needy." It can lead to a form of hyper-dependency and personality disorders that display that. It can make the Superego initially very demanding and then compromised so that ethical concerns and moral concerns and not understood other than for their discussion or manipulative aspects (leading to a form of socio-pathology or psychopathology). These states are justified by life narratives with primarily unhealthy life narratives being dominant. Those life narratives to start with are: 1) "I'm inadequate;" 2) "I'm insignificant;" 3) I'm incompetent;" and 4) "I'm invalid." Those are not the only ones but they are primary. They lead to a need to find ways to manage the psychological energy and most of these replicate the abuse/neglect/and / or manipulation. People can self-neglect as a pattern and they will find people who will take advantage of them. People can learn only to manipulate as a normal way of having intimacy and they will seek persons out that are manipulatable. The cognitive aspects need to be altered. That is the actual thoughts need to be worked through and changed, but often under-trained therapists will try to merely change the thoughts or the behaviors without tying them to the economy of emotional energy internal to their client and this will cause the client to slow down and even stop working their therapy. The under-trained therapist will then state to themselves (and they are often encouraged draw this type of conclusion by their supervisors who are also undertrained), that the client is just resistant or "just not ready to change." When we look at a Hitler and we see the list of significant personal meanings he has (we can see this in his book and other writings), we can see how he is attempting to attach to the world as a whole (a form of pathology) through manipulation and abuse---as though these are ways that he finds a form of intimacy for his own Id. Now most people move past this very early in life. They move to finding almost all of their intimacy through their Ego which is informed by their Superego. The Ego is the stress balancing and integrative mechanism for all experience. The Superego informs the person out the outer limits of conclusions by developing ethical systems and moral propositions. We see that power-wonks in general---those people who seek power for money or primarily for prestige that they have in no other area of life---have an under-developed Superego process. Symptomology is not the way to determine what they are suffering from, although the present APA has opted for that form. They will eventually change it to cause. You have a wonderful day.

@ObiRonMoldy You have a great day. The work sounds tough. I really wish you the best in working to help others.

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I suggest you start here at the link I pasted below. It will take you to the DSM5. This is the authoritative source on all things related to your question.
Like most people with a functioning brain I believe the DSM is flawed. Most of those perceived flaws I believe are the result of a paradigm shift in the mores and general understanding of "right vs "wrong" in Western societies.
This paradigm shift is reflective the radically increased level of secularist ideologies that guide or otherwise influence behaviors of citizens in general.
The spectrum of that which is "normal" vs that which is "abnomral" is much wider than it was in say the DSM 3 and 2 before that and of course the original iteration of this manual.

[psychiatry.org]

As a layman and an armchair observer of human beings who is at best caually acquainted with the DSM that all mental disorders and illnesses are pathological but not all pathologies are classified as mental disorders or illnesses.

There are a LOT more people walking around today (and driving cars and owning firearms and working in potentially dangerous (to others) jobs who are taking one kind of psychotropic or another. And all have been "diagnosed" with some kind of pathology or illness in order to validate the prescriptions put out by their psychiatrists.

My first was was diagnosed as having "Borderline personality disorder" - let me tell you it is impossibly difficult to deal with someone like that in the workplace or in the neighborhood but to be married to someone who has BPD will just about cause you to go to great extremes yourself in trying to cope with it.

iThink Level 9 July 29, 2019

@ObiRonMoldy there is a group here in IDW community dedicated to this very topic...Psychology I mean. If you haven't joined that group already you might consider doing so. I would surmise you'll get better feedback there than you will here.

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I have an idea the the quantity and degrees of neuroticism are proportional to the simplicity and stability of the societies in which individuals exist. More complexity and/or more units of change per units of time screw with individual and populational adaptability.

govols Level 8 July 29, 2019

@Don_Provolone Kinda like most of us exist in a conceptual geography that represents so little of actual reality that we ignore almost everything our senses detect; most of our attention is focused on outlying phenomena. In daily affairs, the world is as it is and we attend to the tasks at hand and the odd unexpected interruption. That seems like the model we're adapted to. If too much disruption creeps into our affairs, dealing with crises overwhelms our faculties and prevents us from managing our basic needs effectively. When individuals among us are failing to manage the basic tasks of daily social interaction, it is often-to-always because their attention is divided up dealing with an abundance of unexpected intrusions from the vastness of the social environment.

@Don_Provolone I have no way to frame your example. I think I get it, in that so long as stimulus isn't overwhelming, seizure response remains inactive?

@Don_Provolone Holy Shit! Mental well-being is (to some extent/in some ways) related to how much excess attention span one has remaining within his unexpected-stimuli-accounting system? One bridge too far; the last straw; hanging by a thread, he just snapped....

Man, my previous posts are over-thought versions of basic conventional wisdom.

@Don_Provolone Everything, on my part, is speculation. Where knowing nothing is concerned, I'm worse than Jon Snow.

1

I'm not a big fan of stretching pathologizing normal people. That's VERY popular right now. So, compromised clinicians have argued literal DSM-v diagnoses for Trump. The same SHOULD be said of a number of leftist senators, including Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, Nadler, Blumenthal, Hirono, on and on and on--Hillary easily. If Trump's literally mentally ill, then those and more are too.

But, none of those ppl are really mentally I'll, and it's damaging to mental healthcare to distort MH by politicizing it. Dangerous and short-sighted.

Mental illness is serious. Every anxious person is not mentally ill. 'Toxicity' is not mental illness (or even a real thing outside of its political purpose). Depression TO ME is a mental illness only in the absence of all agency. There is a complete collapse of coping strategies, negative and positive. PTSD has actual criteria, and those criteria are too often ignored these days. It's like anyone who's ever felt bad has PTSD. Therapists are stretching the definitions of actual disorders.

So, really, severity is important.

chuckpo Level 8 July 29, 2019

...outside of those factors, you're dealing with a lot of variations of normal. Life's not clean and ordered. We all have struggles. Those are NOT mental disorders. Impairment must be significant and not explained by something medical.

@ObiRonMoldy, fair point. ADHD or ADD are controversial. I used to think I had ADHD and then ADD, but as I learned more, I could disperse the 'symptoms' into other 'disorders'--some spectrum type symptoms. I have anxiety. I'm not really clinically depressive or manic, I can have a shade of some of the compulsion types of disorders. My son this and that, my wife that, my daughter a little of that, you, Pelosi, Trump, Earl Campbell--everyone can find themselves in the DSM somewhere. But, that's not what a 'mental health problem' or disorder. I think we should do a better job of drawing lines. I've known depressed people who choose on their own to take walks, volunteer their time to help others, read/research to make themselves better people. Some asswipe somewhere would absolutely prescribe them something strong to dull their senses, but how depressed are people who are engaged in managing themselves? And, what exactly is the difference between depression and someone who feels bad. When bad stuff happens, you're supposed to feel bad. That's how the design works. When you're alone and you actually don't want to be alone, you're supposed to feel bad. We give human design too little credit and give pathology way too much credit. It's dangerous. Personality altering drugs are an easy and extraordinarily dangerous precedent. I know someone who probably has delusion disorder (persistent symptoms). We know this. However, she doesn't seem to be a danger to herself or anyone else. She's functioning in life essentially unimpaired. Should we hold her down and medicate her? Incarcerate her? Where is she happiest? We clearly are not thinking about 'wellness' and quality of life. There are a lot of problems in my field these days. The latest attempt to pathologize maleness is appalling. Probably makes some feminist man-twat feel progressive, but the mother fucker is literally harming young boys because he's not smart enough to be doing what he's doing. This garbage is pushed into the mainstream, and it impacts people's lives. 'Dad, am I toxic?' 'What's wrong with me?' 'Why don't they like me?'

Makes me want to shoot ignorant clinicians in the face with a nuclear warhead. [sarcasm]

Per what are the symptoms of legitimate illness, that information is contained in the DSM-V or IV if that's what your institution is still using (know the differences). I think a really good example disorder to look up is PTSD. The criteria are clear. Actual or threatened death, serious injury, sexual assault--DIRECTLY experiencing or witnessing a traumatic event, awareness of close family or friends experiencing the symptoms, repeated exposure to aversive aspects of traumatic events. There's more, but that's an idea of where to start. Nowhere in there is there room for 'I tripped when I was a kid and my mom laughed at me.' That can be an impactful and important attachment injury, but it's not PTSD.

@ObiRonMoldy, hopefully I provided something useful then. I don't think mental illness explains these violent outbursts. I think chronic aloneness and the lack of a value system is what leads to these outbursts. We simply don't provide a reason not to do it. I know a lot of therapists who are hardcore medical model. The strength of my convictions don't sway them from it.

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