You know, it’s funny. If liberals would agree to a pause on the progressive agenda there would be a lot of room for compromises among many on the far right. I’ve poked around all over much of the nationalist right wing. It’s a really splintered collection, and yes, it includes white separatists (different from), white supremacists, but it also includes civic nationalists, some black nationalists, some Christian nationalists…I mean, really it isn’t a bunch that’s easily defined. The thing is, many of them express concern about the working class, a globalist ruling elite, mass-agriculture, big-business subsidies, corporatism, health care costs, and all sorts of other things that liberals complain about. If a serious offer to negotiate toward greatly reduced migration and firm control of borders, there is a lot of ground to be plowed over topics like huge agribusiness, manufactured processed food, transported thousands of miles and sold in huge portions, probably causing massive health effects and driving high prescription drug use, environmental damage associated consumerist economics, and on and on and on.
It really does seem like “nationalist” is the wedge, but the unity between fairly large portions of both the far-left and the far-right is anti-globalism…which is essentially nationalism, if the left would give ground on immigration. If it were possible to just pause the "progress agenda" for a decade, a generation maybe, consolidate and integrate the massive social changes of the last fifty years and let the culture acclimate again, many on the far right would likely happily help tear down some of the corrupt busini-gov institutions and try to settle some of the environmental and human-wellbeing issues that mean so much to the left.
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Seems to me the “ultra right” that has a tendency to look at the world racially has a whole lot more in common with the left than the the Republican Party
DanMartinovich
Level 7
Aug 22, 2019
1
Truer words were never spoken
The vast majority of people all want the same things, they just disagree about how to get them. Most people that see "nationalist" as a dirty word most likely have a fair amount of nationalist leanings. This is why good faith conversations and freedom of speech are so important. There are bad actors on both sides, but I believe at this particular moment in history the left is causing the most harm
LastLiberal
Level 6
Aug 22, 2019
3
@HighQ What's your belief as to why?
@HighQ it's mostly wildfires. And clearance burning happens regardless of who is in charge. Plus this:
[google.com]
@HighQ why is the New York times saying people are over exaggerating and in some instances sharing old or false photos? Probably due to their pro Trump stance.
@HighQ we shouldn't. As a child of the internet age, I would think you would know a troll when you saw one. He's already called in the army to fight the fires. You ask all the wrong questions. Probably why your conclusions are so consistently flawed
@HighQ it's not belief in Bolsonaro. It's a complete LACK of faith in modern media. You forget. I'm a liberal. I'm just not an easily manipulated one like you. I know the smell of bullshit, you don't. You don't even realize the damage you do to your own cause. My cause. That's why I engage with you more then everyone else. If you and people like you don't wisen up you're gonna cost us the game. Stop putting lol in every comment. You're not actually laughing, you're just attempting condescension like you discovered it was a thing yesterday. You alienate your allies and embolden your rivals with that type of smarmy rhetoric. Almost all people learn the hard way, so I'm probably wasting my time with you. I'll keep giving you the easy option though, it's up to you to take it
Not sure what you’re thinking when you say pause the progressive agenda. Assuming such a thing is remotely realistic: what then? A pause... for how long? Which parts of the progressive agenda would they be expected to set aside for however long the “pause” is in effect? Why would they in the first place?
The whole point of the progressive agenda is confrontation. Unrelenting confrontation, until the opposition gives up in exhaustion. You are suggesting a political resolution to an opponent who lives on religious ground. Compromise is not possible. They really believe that all opposition is evil and must be stamped out.
You may think, “That’s just extreme,” but I’d ask for any evidence that they believe otherwise. In fact, all evidence points to a complete unwillingness to compromise, for to do so grants a validity to your opponent’s position that is in clear violation of Alinsky’s Rules For Radicals. They set out the parameters of the confrontation 50 years ago, in what was simply an updating of Lenin’s tactics 50 years before that.
That’s a lot of time to acquaint ourselves with their thinking. Maybe it’s time we took them at their word.
Edgework
Level 8
Aug 22, 2019
0
Yes, I understand your point. To the ones driving the hand-basket, "there can be only one" highway of good intentions.
@govols no they know theyre intentions are only good for them. The ones riding along with the drivers, are simply riding along just too be apart of the ride. They'll cheer for anything those driving wants them too, as long as they don't get kicked out..sadly the right is beginning to do the same
When a child grows up constantly moving around, never being allowed to settle down and and grow into themselves, they tend to do whatever it takes to fit in and feel apart of something. When people lack a sense of stability, they are left vulnerable to blindly devoting their support to something without a second thought, and from then on will defend that thing to any extent. They are not defending the individual characteristics in which the certain something is made up of. They are specifically defending the vague idea they have of what they are apart of..
Now imagine people gradually abandoning their culture or religion after the idea of it not seeming something of importance, due to developing a materialistic perception. Well materials fail to fill that void which is left from the lack of faith which they obtained through religion. Those individuals are the perfect victims to politicians.
DesireNoDesires
Level 7
Aug 22, 2019
2
This here is the "meaning-making crisis" that's making the rounds in internet conversation all over the web. I'm hearing it touched on in various podcasts. The only place I don't hear it talked about is out here in real life.
@govols because it's such a complex concept, and difficult explain without referencing religion, Which tends to cause people to tune out with a roll of the eyes and a smirk. Moses knew it Jesus knew it, Hendrix knew it, Lennon knew it, Kanye and many other have come to realize it.
Nailed it. It is too complex to boil down into a ten second talking point that "destroys" all opposition to my presupposition. Therefore, I am not interested. This is the sad state of public discourse today.
Just curious. Do you think it's in any way their intention to enter into good-faith negotiation over policy? I haven't seen any evidence of that. And, they call the entire non-left far right, nationalists, white supremacists, etc. They're certainly not going to validate the real far right, because that would undermine their inclusion of the entire non-left in the process.
I don't know, man. You make reasonable points. I don't see reason as being something that reaches through what's going on socially here. Laudible effort. In a normal world, yeah--more of that. In this one? Maybe I'm a pessimist.
chuckpo
Level 8
Aug 22, 2019
1
I have no idea what might be possible. I personally expect to watch the world burn one day, assuming I live a normal lifespan, but I'm often wrong. No, I don't expect the batshit left to ever settle down, but there are maybe some who aren't to woke to be awakened one day. I only know that there is a real "nationalist" right that has many of the same concerns about the ills of modernity that the anti-globalist Occupy Wall Street left worries about. There is room there, somewhere.
Commence the national socialist coalition! Bannon's dream! We just have to negotiate which minorities to throw under the bus. And oh wait, something approximating this is failing right now in Italy. Honestly, I hoped for a libertarian coalition between the left and tea party to reform the financial system and get money out of politics a few years ago and it was naive dream.
@WilyRickWiles I saw the same possibility between libertarians, tea party, OWS...
Wasn't talking about throwing anyone under a bus. Was talking about pausing the progress for a little while so that "conservatives" could adjust to the massive changes of the recent past.
@govols Sounds a little like what Hillary Clinton is calling for. [theguardian.com]
@WilyRickWiles Blind squirrel, I guess.
@govols Or a broken clock. OWS was the single most disappointing movement in my lifetime. I've told @WilyRickWiles as much in a previous conversation. It was highjacked by the "woke" left and instead of taking a realistic and pragmatic approach and harnessing the zeitgeist, they sat around and argued about whether applause was appropriate. Ever hear of Oakland OWS? Most people haven't cause they were getting shit done, so obviously, barely any press coverage. They didn't just whine in a park, they shut down international harbors.
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