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SIN and GLORY: What no Theologian Has Learned | Beyond The Fundamentals (1:59:01)

If you can ignore the seeming arrogance of the title, and kindly hold on to that critiquing building up in the head (which was what I did) until you get to the end of the video, he may have a really good point there.

eschatologyguy 9 Mar 20
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"Open up your mouth. Say something. Bring the truth to the ears of people. And then be willing to get betrayed and crucified for it. That's the cross you are called to bear." ~Kevin Thompson

That's a very interesting encouragement! Thank you.

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This aligns with the fullness of the Orthodox Christian faith as passed down from the Apostles to us today.

@dd54 The problem with Total Depravity is that it leaves too much room for misinterpretation of the intent of the theologian. If there is no good in any human being then God failed in His creation. Unless there is something in man to save then salvation is not worth the life of the Son of God. Instead, it is the bondage of humanity to death from the fall that brings us to a tendency for sin as the commentator pointed out. The death referred to by the Father in Eden was not immediate physical death but the cumulative entropy of the life in humans to the point that physical life cannot be sustained. This is described in the writings of Saint Paul as bondage to death. Ergo, total depravity, as practiced in American churches, is foreign to the Gospel.
As for Limited Atonement, Saint Peter wrote, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of repentance." If it is the will of God for all to repent and be saved He would be working against His own will by choosing some for salvation and others for damnation from the foundation of the Earth. Since that is how the doctrine of Limited Atonement is practiced in American churches, it is inconsistent with God's declared will. Is it possible for someone to resist the grace of God? Jesus told Saul on the road to Damascus, "It is hard to kick against the goads." Note that He never declared it to be impossible. And if it is possible that Saul could have continued his resistance to the grace of Jesus Christ then that grace is actually not irresistible. God is not a petty tyrant forcing people to bend to His will nor capriciously assigning people to damnation. This only puffs up the egos of those adherents to the doctrine who are inclined to see themselves as better than another for some immutable reason.
Rather, the expressed will of God is that every human being should change the way they think (repent) and come to the knowledge of His truth. Those who chose to hate God, for whatever reason, would only suffer in the presence of His absolute holiness. Therefore, consignment of the ones in rebellion to His will is not a punishment per se, but an act of mercy. The fires of hell are fueled by the hatred of the angels and humans consigned to exist outside the presence of God.

@FuzzyMarineVet

This aligns with the fullness of the Orthodox Christian faith as passed down from the Apostles to us today.

It seems that way. I cannot find anything in what he's saying here contrary to scripture. Maybe just his failure to use "smooth words and fair speeches." Otherwise I think he nails it. I'm sure other theologians have hit on this concept as well, just not articulated and focused on well enough as he does here. I could say the same for Mike Heiser and his articulation of the unseen realm brought about by his paradigm-changing encounter of Psalm 82 in the original Hebrew text. Heiser didn't "discover" the idea of the unseen realm. He just articulated and focused on it better.

@dd54 You say, "I need to respond to this mixture of post-modern metaphysical thinking as its been used to interpret scrityure (sic)." Yet I base my understanding on the ancient church fathers writings, not something dreamed up less than 600 years ago in Switzerland.

@dd54 Let us stop rationalizing something simple. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus." Saint Paul spent a lot of time discussing the bondage of death and the liberty from that bondage created when Jesus rose from the dead. It was that bondage of death that tended humans to sin, and the liberty to chose life or death has been afforded to humanity by the infinite God entering the finite death and bursting it from the inside like an overfilled water balloon. "Oh death, where is thy victory?! Oh grave, where is thy sting?!"

@dd54 Nor do I say that the unredeemed are saved. The people who chose to retain their bondage to death will definitely die the second death. God gave everyone the right to chose life or death. Those who chose life must attain it through Jesus Christ. Those who chose death will have their wish fulfilled.

@dd54, @FuzzyMarineVet All who are in their graves will be resurrected. Some to life, others to condemnation, but Paul said: As in Adam ALL die, so, too, in Christ shall ALL be made alive. So, I've asked: Is there resurrection from the second death? Or, does death win?

@dmatic for those who have chosen to live in Christ, death is defeated once and forever. For those who reject life and the grace that enables it, the second death is all that can await them for the first death is destroyed by the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.
On a side note, the second death you refer to so often is not cessation of existence, for that is impossible once created by God. Instead it is utter and total separation from the font of all existence, God Himself. This is done as an act of mercy, not punishment, by God to relieve the utter agony of one who hates the holiness of God being forced to be in His presence for eternity.

@FuzzyMarineVet Doesn't fly, my friend! How does God's promise that ALL will know Him, from the least to the greatest...and will bow and confess allegiance to Him, fit in your theology? Thanks. By the way, I did not say the second death is a cessation of existence. I believe it to be a cleansing, consuming fire....from which there is resurrection. Death does not win.

@dmatic God does not promise that all will confess allegiance. At the defeat of the rebellious angels, demons and humans in the Battle of the Valley of Meggedo, the defeated will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but they will still refuse to follow Him. Hence the "Second Death" is the way of putting them away from the presence of God. Consider this, after the judgement what further redemption can there be? The "Second Death" comes after the Final Judgement. If the Judgement is final there is no appeal to a higher court. There is no Higher Court than the Great White Throne.

@FuzzyMarineVet Maybe, but Isaiah, for one, seems to disagree with your speculations...i.e. 45:23. It alos depends on your understanding or lack, of God's purpose in judgment. What do you think God's purpose is? Read the 2nd half of verse 9 of Isaiah 26...for an answer. I know I'm challenging your orthodox view of things and it may be uncomfortable, because you've probably built a whole lot of your world view on top of some of those assumptions and teachings...It was a little unnerving for us when we discovered some of those things weren't actually true, too.

@dmatic This debate was settled a thousand years before John Calvin was born. The Bishop Origin of Antioch had similar interpretations of universal salvation from reading those verses you cite and started the discussion shortly after the resolution of the mess stirred up by Arios of Alexandria. This problem was solved about the time Montanos began his itinerant tour of the Christian lands around the Mediterranean Sea. I am not basing my understanding on things invented after the ascention of our Lord, but on the things He taught that were handed down through His Apostles to the Assembly of believers called to worship.

@FuzzyMarineVet Well, you are more studied than I am. I knew a bit of Origin's understanding, but know nothing of Arios or Montanos. Thanks. There are more scriptures that seem to me to indicate that God will lose none of His Creation, but is redeeming the whole world through His Son! Thanks again.

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