The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

pbuck0145 comments on Apr 19, 2020:

You are incorrect. Atheists do not accept the existence of any deity, including your "God that I doubt".

govols replies on Apr 20, 2020:

Yes, I understand that, but it's not what I was saying. I was noting that, among atheists I've heard discussing what it is that they don't believe in, it's always something much smaller than what I think of when the idea comes to mind.

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

Crikey comments on Apr 19, 2020:

I think you've kind of missed the point of "God of the gaps". As do some atheists. God of the gaps is simply "evidence" presented for god that is simply "we don't know X, therefore god did it". Reason for the big bang? God. Origin of the first life form, life from non-life? God! And so on. God of...

govols replies on Apr 20, 2020:

That's actually exactly how I understand the god of the gaps.

Who do we trust to tell the truth? Who decides?

govols comments on Apr 19, 2020:

I've come to the conclusion that the truth is inaccessible to me.

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

@Spetsnasty If it seems the truth is biased, the information available to you isn't participating in truth seeking. Instead, we're reduced to viewing attempts to fabricate truth claims.

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

Naomi comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Hello. I read or heard somewhere that religion is a knowing by revelation and science is a knowing by finding facts, or something along those lines. Perhaps, neither is evidence by itself that god(s) exists or doesn't exist. I don't like it when people talk about religion with contempt.

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

@Naomi, where I like/dislike, it's all about the feels. It isn't from the mind, but from the gut.

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

Naomi comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Hello. I read or heard somewhere that religion is a knowing by revelation and science is a knowing by finding facts, or something along those lines. Perhaps, neither is evidence by itself that god(s) exists or doesn't exist. I don't like it when people talk about religion with contempt.

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

@Naomi, I haven't even reached a conclusion that I have opinions that I'm sure of.

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

waynus comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Do you believe in a God beyond scriptures and priests? Do you believe in a God that is beyond all that is knowable by humanity? Do you believe in a God that exists beyond all that our minds can conceive?

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

@waynus I understand the argument, but don't find it to be true. There is more gap in the universe than there is reality. Something is really in all of those gaps, and if it isn't part of the knowable real, it exist outside of the knowable and outside of "creation." We didn't invent the is that words can't describe. We only invent the words we use to describe what we can describe.

Nuff said ok

govols comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Well, there is a shit ton of faith involved in a belief that the knowable, the measurable, the quantifiable, is the whole of reality.

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

@Crikey Atheism, in and of itself, is the demand for proof, wouldn't you say?

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

Naomi comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Hello. I read or heard somewhere that religion is a knowing by revelation and science is a knowing by finding facts, or something along those lines. Perhaps, neither is evidence by itself that god(s) exists or doesn't exist. I don't like it when people talk about religion with contempt.

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

I'm gonna admit a lot of contempt for a lot of the ideas that I explore, though I attempt to as great a degree as possible to refrain from expressing the contempt that I feel when engaging the ideas with others. Just between you and me I try like hell to be sort of disinterested as we both confront stuff we,(or maybe just I) aren't comfortable with. I mean, I utterly loathe some of the philosophy that we toy with on this forum, but trying to treat them with a certain generosity, regard--if not respect or acceptance--seems necessary if anything is to be gained from the effort.

The God that I doubt seems ever so much greater to me than the god that most atheists don't believe ...

waynus comments on Apr 19, 2020:

Do you believe in a God beyond scriptures and priests? Do you believe in a God that is beyond all that is knowable by humanity? Do you believe in a God that exists beyond all that our minds can conceive?

govols replies on Apr 19, 2020:

To the extent that my doubt doesn't preclude it, greater even than that is the God in whom my faith would be placed.

Is this liberty to you?

govols comments on Apr 17, 2020:

Define liberty.

govols replies on Apr 17, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles The president has microscopic power. He isn't a dictator even if appointed for life. An eternal president isn't a dictator.

Is this liberty to you?

govols comments on Apr 17, 2020:

Define liberty.

govols replies on Apr 17, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles The president isn't a dictator.

Is this liberty to you?

govols comments on Apr 17, 2020:

Define liberty.

govols replies on Apr 17, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles I don't know. Ours is a system that persistently decreases liberty. Status quo doesn't promote liberty. I have no idea what might be better.

Is this liberty to you?

govols comments on Apr 17, 2020:

Define liberty.

govols replies on Apr 17, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles Liberty can exist under nondemocratic forms of governance. Democracy is perfectly capable of tyranny.

To be modern is to distinguish from primate. Postmodernism with power leads to primates.

govols comments on Apr 16, 2020:

How do you define postmodernism?

govols replies on Apr 16, 2020:

I think art might be the least of it. To me it's more about overall effort to point out flaws in previous conventions in order to show how current ones might also be flawed. The project is to cast doubt on convention, wisdom, and common sense as legitimate manners of knowing.

Trump defunds WHO in an effort to deflect his incompetent role in the current crisis.

Naomi comments on Apr 16, 2020:

Looks like you've hit a nerve, hence contemptuous reactions. 😂

govols replies on Apr 16, 2020:

I tend to think that many (NOT ALL) who are at least minimally generous toward Trump have been anti-UN for years.

How the Government Pulls Coronavirus Relief Money Out of Thin Air [nytimes.

govols comments on Apr 15, 2020:

And your thoughts are?

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles, but do these sorts of policies change the rate of inflation imposed upon currency stashes?

How the Government Pulls Coronavirus Relief Money Out of Thin Air [nytimes.

govols comments on Apr 15, 2020:

And your thoughts are?

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles So, what does this sort of policy mean to the value of the $10k worth of small, unmaked bills in my gun safe?

If Christians and Atheists are in a cage match to decide what is true, the Atheist wears a ...

waynus comments on Apr 15, 2020:

An odd metaphor. If you tell a story and include all the components you think are important you cannot then claim the story corresponds with anything other than your imagination. This is religion, a story told to contain all you think is important. The difficulty is the person who reads ...

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

@waynus...I don't know. The fact that various faith traditions have from time to time been conventional wisdom in various cultures and regions suggests certain advantages those belief structures provided over nearby competing populations who didn't have belief systems or who had differing belief systems. One might say that every current faith system has demonstrably proven to promote the well-being of their followers by way of the fact that the systems' followers currently endure, where the followers of many lost faiths are no longer among us to keep them.

If Christians and Atheists are in a cage match to decide what is true, the Atheist wears a ...

govols comments on Apr 15, 2020:

Um, I don't think we get to decide what is true.

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

@BikerPetehall70, okay...

If the Tower of Babel workers had Google Translate they would just be known as workers.

BikerPetehall70 comments on Apr 15, 2020:

That's a another fairy story, if god was upset about people supposedly getting too close to heaven why hasn't the ISS been destroyed?

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

It wasn't about getting close to heaven; it was about the hubris of building it for the purpose of reputation and self-glorification.

If a robot told you it was sentient, would you believe it?

govols comments on Apr 15, 2020:

I would shut down the robot, take it apart, destroy the hardware, over-write all known copies of the software a few hundred times, and gut-shoot the programmer.

govols replies on Apr 15, 2020:

@Supra_Librix Then, for just a brief moment, I'd believe it.

Nietzsche - On the Genealogy of Morality

govols comments on Apr 14, 2020:

*Does that mean the human mind or our way of thinking has hardly changed ever?* The human mind and its manners of thinking are largely unchanging. On some level we're nothing but apes with language enough to apologize to one another if we're open enough to the idea the we might have fucked up. ...

govols replies on Apr 14, 2020:

@Naomi What strikes your fancy about deism? It goes way the hell back, like at least to Aristotle (I think it was). He theorized a God as the source of all motive force, himself timelessly unmoved. I don't like it, personally. It irks me to ponder a god of the universe as a perpetual naval gazer.

Nietzsche - On the Genealogy of Morality

govols comments on Apr 14, 2020:

Have you noticed the growing detail to the theme of pre-civilizational humans as being heroic masters of destiny, and of modernity being the tool through which The Great Heroic is subjected to a regression to the mean? That civilizational forces enable mediocrity, suppress individuality, impose ...

govols replies on Apr 14, 2020:

@Naomi I'm not nearly so much well read as I am way over youtubed. One of the things that strikes me about the critics of modernity in the mid/late 1900s- early/mid 2000s is a glorification of pre-modern--pre-historic, even--human manners of being. It's like they're all saying modernity sucks because it's made all of us unworthy of Homer's attention. There's no glory to be had from modernity! Riches? Wealth? Drudgery? All in abundance. But glory is lost. The psychoanalysts? Dear God... Really we're all just wannabe Mother fu@? Really? The literary theorists? Everything is a text from which no meaning may ever be derived? AND our stories all suck. I do very much enjoy that you took something from the idea of morality as a means by which the weak might hold rein over their "betters." Today it's a virtue to to point out privilege, and Nietzsche was pining for an age in which virtue was to seek to BE better. Cheers!

Law is codified morality.

govols comments on Apr 13, 2020:

Law is codified normativity?

govols replies on Apr 13, 2020:

@Supra_Librix No. It's normal to break the petty law...the laws that attempt to codify non-normative?

How central bank swap lines are changing with the coronavirus pandemic response

dmatic comments on Apr 12, 2020:

It all seems to be built on such a house of cards and the winds are blowing! One wonders how long before the inevitable crash?

govols replies on Apr 12, 2020:

I'm pulling for giant meteor.

I'm looking for John Galt.

govols comments on Apr 12, 2020:

Who is John Galt?

govols replies on Apr 12, 2020:

@Rosary_Trace Somebody HAD to, and I happened to be first.

Faith without works is Dead.

SupraLibrix comments on Apr 10, 2020:

@wolfhnd @govols @CuriousFury I've enjoyed the exchanges with you. I'd love to create some inertia behind the idea. You seem like very thoughtful, clear-eyed folk. I'm confident I can get some VC funding for this from my dotcom contacts if there is genuine enthusiasm. The money will flow ...

govols replies on Apr 10, 2020:

@Supra_Librix You could message admin?

Faith without works is Dead.

SupraLibrix comments on Apr 10, 2020:

@wolfhnd @govols @CuriousFury I've enjoyed the exchanges with you. I'd love to create some inertia behind the idea. You seem like very thoughtful, clear-eyed folk. I'm confident I can get some VC funding for this from my dotcom contacts if there is genuine enthusiasm. The money will flow ...

govols replies on Apr 10, 2020:

I don't trust you yet. If I did, what are you asking for?

Is it only White People who can be racist?

govols comments on Apr 9, 2020:

What were the high points? What were your conclusions?

govols replies on Apr 9, 2020:

@CarrenTracey thanks for the input. I'll try to listen again; I was struggling badly with the accent.

Why is it so difficult to distribute wealth in a manner that ensures a basic minimum standard of ...

govols comments on Apr 8, 2020:

@Naomi, you're asking many good questions, and from a decent and open state of mind. In this case, the problems with your question stem from the fact that we don't have a "meaning" for basic minimum standard of living" and we don't have any entity with the authority to distribute such a thing to ...

govols replies on Apr 9, 2020:

@Naomi, no, I'm not playing with public ownership, but an idea of public utility. Another example: Starbucks must provide one small black coffee to anybody who brings them a vessel to contain it at least until 9am each day. Minimum standard of living. They still get to sell $6.00 cappuccinos or whatever. Co-ops are valid as can be if a community will work together to make it functional, but that doesn't get to the idea of "minimum standard of living."

Many "Postmodern" ideas are True. There. God help me, I said it. But what the hell are they?

wolfhnd comments on Apr 8, 2020:

I have always found it interesting that every civilization felt as if they were the end of history. In some ways it is a reflection on this proclivity that we have the term modernity. In that sense the term postmodernism is rather hubristic. I suspect that the term reflects a political not ...

govols replies on Apr 9, 2020:

I wonder if the genius of culture is the same as that of science--close enough. "Traditional" culture is the one we are raised in, as each evolve over time in reaction to the processes of dealing with crises and conflicts. Experiential v experimental? Tradition v science? Both working toward "good enough?"

Why is it so difficult to distribute wealth in a manner that ensures a basic minimum standard of ...

govols comments on Apr 8, 2020:

@Naomi, you're asking many good questions, and from a decent and open state of mind. In this case, the problems with your question stem from the fact that we don't have a "meaning" for basic minimum standard of living" and we don't have any entity with the authority to distribute such a thing to ...

govols replies on Apr 9, 2020:

@Naomi, really, as near as I can tell, IF one could define "minimum standard of living" then a function of ensuring same would be to make all aspects of producing said minimum a "public utility." I have no idea how to manage it, but it might look like all free enterprise operating like cable TV--basic package, through levels of service, right up through unlimited. Imagine going to a breakfast diner and ordering the "free shit basic meal." What? One boiled egg, in the shell, one slice of bacon, one piece of toast. There you go, minimum standard of living. The same diner might offer omelets, french toast, whatever, but basic diner doesn't. I don't know...

America is the greatest conspiracy theory in history.

dmatic comments on Apr 9, 2020:

Could you help me understand what you mean? Thanks

govols replies on Apr 9, 2020:

It's like a magic 8 ball full of fortune cookies.

Why is it so difficult to distribute wealth in a manner that ensures a basic minimum standard of ...

govols comments on Apr 8, 2020:

@Naomi, you're asking many good questions, and from a decent and open state of mind. In this case, the problems with your question stem from the fact that we don't have a "meaning" for basic minimum standard of living" and we don't have any entity with the authority to distribute such a thing to ...

govols replies on Apr 8, 2020:

An example from current crisis. This week I engaged a small business that does curtains and drapes to make me 100 masks. My intent was to supply the small business for which I work, for all of its employees, a peace of mind as they do non-work necessary activities so that we might all feel safer working together as required. I arranged it "out of pocket," without consulting bosses. It wasn't hard. It was a risk, and I had no idea if my employer would offer to cover my expense. I just did it, went bold, and will have a few dozen to share with my neighbors. As luck has it, it's no longer going to be a personal "out of pocket" venture. But NOBODY has the authority in current year to do that sort of shit on the grand scale, and if so, there is nobody to hold them to account should they try it and fuck it up.

What history books will be taken seriously in the future?

govols comments on Apr 7, 2020:

The ones ordained as true by those who make both history and the future. As it's ever been.

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

@Supra_Librix Look into the history of empires. What's going on right now isn't so great. It's more a change of perspective than a shift in paradigm. We're still doing degrees of angle rather than tipping the tables.

Iain McGilchrist's book 'The Master and his Emissary' was a sensation.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 7, 2020:

Pure Democracy is pure chaos. I see Representative Republic as harnessed chaos. Many people find the chaos of the US unsettling. So Iain McGilchrist's statement that order has taken over the West makes no sense to me. And as an engineer, I find his comment that turbulence is of value as ...

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

@TimTuolomne I'm not agreeing with him. I think he's saying that the current culture is a left-brained one with a rigid model of the world. There is a right brained bunch of people on both the left and the right who are seeing anomalies--maybe not the same ones, nor offering the same solutions--but the left-brained cultural structure can't even be bother to hear of the problems. Eric Weinstein calls it the "Distributed Information Suppression Complex" and says that it's academics and policy-makers defending long and strongly held beliefs that, if allowed to be perturbed, would ruin systemic credibility and careers. Asimov predicted that the "Madness of Crowds" could be calculated, and a well hidden "Deep State" could manage the madness toward the benefit of all, but to the particular benefit of the managers. Especially if the "Management" had a long enough memory--a"Tradition" of keeping and eye on the ball, if you will.

Iain McGilchrist's book 'The Master and his Emissary' was a sensation.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 7, 2020:

Pure Democracy is pure chaos. I see Representative Republic as harnessed chaos. Many people find the chaos of the US unsettling. So Iain McGilchrist's statement that order has taken over the West makes no sense to me. And as an engineer, I find his comment that turbulence is of value as ...

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

@TimTuolomne, I think you (or I) misunderstand his project. I think what he's after is the "unitary mind." He's using the brain as a way of looking at broader culture. There some process in the right brain of noticing anomalies, and accumulating them, but not for actually aggregating them into new Truth. The left brain is always ONLY the current version of the operating system. He's trying to figure out where the new code is generated...??????? once the anomalies accumulate into a big Blue Screen of Death...sort of like we're currently facing culturally in present era.

Iain McGilchrist's book 'The Master and his Emissary' was a sensation.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 7, 2020:

Pure Democracy is pure chaos. I see Representative Republic as harnessed chaos. Many people find the chaos of the US unsettling. So Iain McGilchrist's statement that order has taken over the West makes no sense to me. And as an engineer, I find his comment that turbulence is of value as ...

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

@TimTuolomne, Yes, very much so. Thanks. Do we both understand right brain to be the one that's watching out for things that are out of place? The left brain incorporates and integrates the out of place into updated "version" of worldview 1.x? Something like that?

Iain McGilchrist's book 'The Master and his Emissary' was a sensation.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 7, 2020:

Pure Democracy is pure chaos. I see Representative Republic as harnessed chaos. Many people find the chaos of the US unsettling. So Iain McGilchrist's statement that order has taken over the West makes no sense to me. And as an engineer, I find his comment that turbulence is of value as ...

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

@TimTuolomne, conflict of context. I was talking about the first paragraph, which was all I was seeing in the post to which I replied.

Iain McGilchrist's book 'The Master and his Emissary' was a sensation.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 7, 2020:

Pure Democracy is pure chaos. I see Representative Republic as harnessed chaos. Many people find the chaos of the US unsettling. So Iain McGilchrist's statement that order has taken over the West makes no sense to me. And as an engineer, I find his comment that turbulence is of value as ...

govols replies on Apr 7, 2020:

Can you reread that last sentence and find another way of expressing it? I simply can't make a meaning from it.

As a contract worker, albeit full-time for a single employer, I assumed, when the work shut down ...

govols comments on Apr 6, 2020:

This is the thing that pisses me off the most about George Carlin's servicing of the customer. All of that bloat, all of the annual appropriations, all of the managerial layers, thousands of employees and pages of policies and procedures--all for nothing when the feces hurtles through the fan. I ...

govols replies on Apr 6, 2020:

@Edgework, it works for government and politics, too. The part I'm thinking about is at about 2 minutes in, but the whole of it applies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BtzaYpivFM

Interesting - 1918 Spanish Flu historical documentary

govols comments on Apr 6, 2020:

Hell on Earth.

govols replies on Apr 6, 2020:

@Naomi I agree, though admit to being a piss poor example. We've been careful about keeping distance but we've also been trying to do takeout with the local favorites for picnics and such. I was very pleased to learn from the pizza place we love that the tips have been generous even though it's really just curbside pickup. Everyone at work is washing hands and staying well apart, wiping down doorknobs and desktops, all of that crap; still, we're working as necessary and working from home as much as possible. We're trying to be smart about it all, but really, honesty, probably not taking it as seriously as we might ought to be.

Sam and Jordan and Bret delved into the (im)morality of slavery.

Crikey comments on Apr 2, 2020:

I really hope that current generations will be judged as harshly by future generations, for our attitude towards poverty and the homeless, as our generation judges the slave owners and their enablers of past generations.

govols replies on Apr 2, 2020:

Yet the poor and homeless will remain among them. Always.

Sam and Jordan and Bret delved into the (im)morality of slavery.

David42 comments on Apr 2, 2020:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_India

govols replies on Apr 2, 2020:

I'm not reading a wiki without a perspective into why I should.

Let's play with a muddled mess of thinking that I haven't even come close to thinking all the way ...

David42 comments on Apr 2, 2020:

Some of us are human. Most of us are somewhat better than animals. It seems that over 90% of all violent crimes are committed by males between the ages of 16 and 24. Even gangbangers eventually realize the futility of their lifestyle. There will always be enough animals to keep prisons full and ...

govols replies on Apr 2, 2020:

I'll fuck this up, I'm sure, but Aristotle had some notion that all living things need nutrition, and vegetative life gets it in a largely sedentary way. Animals just go about pursuing their their nutritive needs in a mobile manner. Humans are all animals. People have a nature that transcends the human animal, that allows us to reason. The lesser of us generally rationalize our animistic behaviors within an IS, while the people among us attempt, to varying degrees, to work out the OUGHTS. It isn't possible to eradicate or isolate the animals because we are all animals. We might isolate the very worst of us, and all for it, but the result will be that the middling of us will then become the worst. They'll always be among us no matter the level to which we raise the norm.

Rent Strike Is COMING, The Economy And Public Health Have Put People Between A Rock And A Hard Place...

MaskedRiderChris comments on Apr 2, 2020:

Sounds to me like Tim is indeed becoming gradually more red pilled over time. Key word being "gradually", of course. On point, I hope that the people who were laid off from their jobs had some money stashed away, of course, but then again, my complex sent out a letter the other day stating that they...

govols replies on Apr 2, 2020:

The red pill is best taken one at a time, on a schedule, like blood pressure medicine. The worst possible thing is to not take the medication, but a close second is to try to choke down the container and the contents in one swallow. I paid bills last night and it hurt. It always does. I'm blessed to remain well and fully employed, and in possession of a modest nest-egg.

Why are you here?

wolfhnd comments on Apr 1, 2020:

These forums serve the same purpose as Barber Shops and Beauty Salons did during my childhood. Before that it was pubs and coffee houses. It's a place to chat and exchange ideas. To get confirmation ibn the emotional sense. There was a time when I thought forums would be a place where experts...

govols replies on Apr 2, 2020:

So this is Floyd's barber shop or Cheers without the actual human contact. The Wednesday Fellowship of the information-age Church. Damn.

A pretty good evaluation of Peterson that delves into strengths and weaknesses.

TimTuolomne comments on Apr 1, 2020:

I found Dr Grande's presentation interesting, thorough, and I had the impression he is informed about the subject, Dr Jordan Peterson - although on that point I'm not qualified to know. I'm not sure what I do with the information presented. I have already found Dr Peterson persuasive, and ...

govols replies on Apr 1, 2020:

I have enjoyed many of Peterson's multitudes of presentations, and have been irritated by most of the criticisms against him, but this is one of the few (maybe only) critiques that I found to be open, balanced, fair and honestly genuine.

Which is worse? Totalitarianism from the Left or the Right?

govols comments on Mar 31, 2020:

Well, it depends what you put on the right and the left. Anarchy v absolutism? Liberty v slavery?

govols replies on Mar 31, 2020:

If I were to try to fix the web I would probably try to make is so that any account that is deleted or suspended also result in the same penalty for whoever bitched about it to begin with.

Which is worse? Totalitarianism from the Left or the Right?

govols comments on Mar 31, 2020:

Well, it depends what you put on the right and the left. Anarchy v absolutism? Liberty v slavery?

govols replies on Mar 31, 2020:

So, the right has to possess and maintain the capability of delivering overwhelming force because the left wants to disallow free will by whatever forced might be mustered. And you question which is worse?

Which is worse? Totalitarianism from the Left or the Right?

govols comments on Mar 31, 2020:

Well, it depends what you put on the right and the left. Anarchy v absolutism? Liberty v slavery?

govols replies on Mar 31, 2020:

So, the left requires a suppression of free will through overwhelming force, as you admit and as history has thus far demonstrated. Now, to my mind, the right requires little more than back the fuck off and leave me alone. Which is worse, to your mind?

If you could censor the lies about Trump, would you?

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What lies?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles, define alt right. Sargon is a basic individualist, classical liberal.

If you could censor the lies about Trump, would you?

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What lies?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles Okay, define liberal. By traditional usages outside of the US , both of your alt right examples are liberals.

If you could censor the lies about Trump, would you?

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What lies?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles, by what definition? They're both liberals.

If you could censor the lies about Trump, would you?

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What lies?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles,and who among the supposed IDW do you consider alt right, given that virtually all of them are liberal by any but the American meaning.

If you could censor the lies about Trump, would you?

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What lies?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles, define alt right.

One of Covid-19's silver linings is that it puts the pettiness of the "Social Justice" movement in ...

Naomi comments on Mar 30, 2020:

SJWs are being forgotten for now by those who get outraged by them, and vice versa. Modern tribalism and identity politics are played across the political spectrum. It will be business as usual once the pandemic is over IMO.

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

The social collapse will be delayed for the viral economic collapse. The postponement will be held to the minimum possible duration.

I have programmed an AI that believes communism is the ideal state of man.

govols comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What are its definitions?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

What's the definition of happiness?

I have programmed an AI that believes communism is the ideal state of man.

govols comments on Mar 30, 2020:

What are its definitions?

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

what are the definitions of all of the other possible states of man?

Why the Left can't meme

govols comments on Mar 30, 2020:

Our entire modern culture is a meme complex left to us by the generations of leftist of the past. The left memes through media, education, and social outcast embracement. And they're still winning.

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

It's impossible to know if they're correct. The vast majority of the claims are non-falsifiable theory.

One of Covid-19's silver linings is that it puts the pettiness of the "Social Justice" movement in ...

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

You can prepare by being above and putting out of mind the pettiness of others who have equal or more power than you, and by being curious and compassionate when you are challenged by someone with less power than you. EDIT: And if you have some relevant expertise or experience with which to ...

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles, I AM used to it. I'm also used to the fact that the revolutions do nothing but rearrange power, always unjustly, and lead to usually brutal reaction. Over and over and over...

One of Covid-19's silver linings is that it puts the pettiness of the "Social Justice" movement in ...

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

You can prepare by being above and putting out of mind the pettiness of others who have equal or more power than you, and by being curious and compassionate when you are challenged by someone with less power than you. EDIT: And if you have some relevant expertise or experience with which to ...

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles ?

One of Covid-19's silver linings is that it puts the pettiness of the "Social Justice" movement in ...

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 30, 2020:

You can prepare by being above and putting out of mind the pettiness of others who have equal or more power than you, and by being curious and compassionate when you are challenged by someone with less power than you. EDIT: And if you have some relevant expertise or experience with which to ...

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

It's all about the systems of power and oppression--always. Every sing time. You do at least realize they're always going to be there, don't you? The revolution is forever. One of these days the reaction will come again, real good and hard. It always does.

One of Covid-19's silver linings is that it puts the pettiness of the "Social Justice" movement in ...

TimTuolomne comments on Mar 30, 2020:

The main tool of the SJW is condemnation, so condemning them is like pouring gasoline on a fire. The way to defeat them is to keep posting articles like Melanie Phillips, who clearly, rationally, and lovingly describes the break in rational thinking that is required to become a SJW. Also post the ...

govols replies on Mar 30, 2020:

It's funny how diving into their bullshit as a 30-something exposes it AS bullshit, but infecting the not-yet-fully-formed minds of teenagers is brutally effective.

Many people are debating on whether people are more important than economy or economy is more ...

govols comments on Mar 28, 2020:

This attitude REALLY pisses me off. "The Economy" exists as a tool in the service of society, not the other way around.

govols replies on Mar 28, 2020:

@BobCoffey1, No shit....

Jordan Peterson. "Dumb People Gotta Eat Too." [youtu.be]

govols comments on Mar 27, 2020:

I've been thinking about this for a long time. One of the reasons it's hard to find thing for the bottom 10 or 15 percent to do is that the people bright enough to manage a ragtag group of dim people is also too smart to communicate with them. 85-115 is considered "normal range," but that two whole ...

govols replies on Mar 27, 2020:

I think you're right that it's the higher end duty to put forth the effort, but that's becoming harder over time. The more educated and higher status people more and more flock together in "districts," and as their children come up they're exposed to less and less cognitive diversity over generations. Exceptions apply, of course.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley, tail between legs, govols retreats. Thank you for the investment you made in the exchange. I'm please to have had it, and glad you also found some benefit.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley, ya know what? Never mind. I apologize for wasting your time by attempting to engage with your obviously superior understanding of your singular factual record of history. Thank you for the patience you've managed to maintain as you've attempted to convey information. I'll explore some of it as time allows, but doubt I'll again bother you with any attempts at conversation. Cheers.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

govols comments on Mar 25, 2020:

Naomi, can you offer definitions for your terms conservative and progressive?

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Naomi Here's a look from a more contemporary time... http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Liberal

When washing two hands thoroughly is hard enough...

govols comments on Mar 26, 2020:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1di2Gn3ovM

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

A gentleman never tells. But he might post pics to myexgirlfriend.com.

How's your quarantine going? 😂 🤣

govols comments on Mar 26, 2020:

I love that you've been finding these and spreading them, but I'm one of the "essential." I'm working daily and not from home, so the only thing missing is the community of the pubs.

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

We're all doing our best and following distancing and handwashing practices. Have you ever been to America? To give you an idea of how vast this freaking place is, and how weird it is to be within it as a statistical unit, my State of TN has just about a thousand cases with three reported deaths as of yesterday. TN is about 30% bigger than Ireland.

How's your quarantine going? 😂 🤣

govols comments on Mar 26, 2020:

I love that you've been finding these and spreading them, but I'm one of the "essential." I'm working daily and not from home, so the only thing missing is the community of the pubs.

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Naomi, we're not nearly so positive as to call some workers "key." We have non-essential workers and businesses, MILLIONS of them, an by default the rest are supposed among our self-important selves to be "essential." I guess we derive some status from it or something. Of course, we'd never say it aloud, but....

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

N0DD comments on Mar 26, 2020:

Revolution throws over the Power of the King, but Kings always return, created by the need of people to be subject and sovereign.

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

"The Revolution" is like Hotel California: you can never leave. It's impossible to un-see the power/oppression dichotomy, and no matter how far down you tear the "structures of oppression" they remain. Long live The Revolution! It's turtles, all the way down.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

govols comments on Mar 25, 2020:

Naomi, can you offer definitions for your terms conservative and progressive?

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Naomi, they're not interchangeable, but possibly transitional IF both are fundamentally liberal. I've posted about it before that there's a flaw in The Enlightenment project that simply followed from it's own situation in history, and then led almost inevitably to our own. The Enlightenment begot liberalism and we're all fundamentally liberals because our cultures have been assimilated to it.

The problem is liberalism.

SupraLibrix comments on Mar 26, 2020:

You two sound like people I'd like to meet. I developed a unique mathematical philosophy, it answers @govols, you state: "there are NO PARTICULAR HUMAN UNIVERSALS" There are two: Life. There's your 1. Death. There's your 0. From that basis you can develop a binary morality. I've ...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

Hey, I checked it out and sort of follow it until my eyes glaze. Analytic philosophy and I have a distaste for one another. I will try again, and let you know if I get it digested.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley Okay, let me play a bit with your lens. The colonists came, on one hand, to form communities in which their own ideologies, whether religious or otherwise, could be expressed and realized away from the structures of power within England, Alternatively, the colonists came to seek opportunities--largely unavailable to them in the homelands--away from the economic structures of England. The governing structures within the colonies, over time, organically shifted away from authoritarian structures toward ones that more accurately reflected a common consensus of what law and justice looks like within a wide variety of differing communities. When the State were forming up republics that left townships within largely free to their own community standards it was still good. Under the articles, where the state republics remained sovereign, all was well. When the delegates who were originally assembles to propose amendments to the States of their articles of confederation instead presented a newly formulated supreme federation, ours was no longer the organic union of republics for which the revolution was engaged. Close enough?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

timon_phocas comments on Mar 26, 2020:

Howdy @Naomi, I always appreciate it when you open an intellectual jar of worms. The American Revolution was as complicated as any in history. It has been described variously as an economic, ideological, religious, cultural and racial conflict. It was all of these, depending on where you ...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@timon_phocas So your idea of the material cause of the war was the market inefficiencies associated with perspective differences. The English regime facilitated colonization on behalf a merchant class who saw the colonies as resources and markets, where the colonists themselves had a more "lived in" experience of independent home rule. Over generations the colonists began to realize a self- and common-interest apart from those of the motherland. The motivations to take sides was more about the rhetoric most easily adopted among the various sections within the colonies. Is that close to where you're coming from?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley Okay. It seems like, whether I can identify anything there that I can hang a name on or not, your drawing on an interest/perspective that's far more deeply steeped in economic and legal theory than my own. I'm interested in the constitutional ideas you bring up. Are you basically comparing organically evolved as result of reality and pragmatism toward consensual governance vs. artificially designed and imposed as a ruling regime?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

govols comments on Mar 25, 2020:

Naomi, can you offer definitions for your terms conservative and progressive?

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Naomi I understand where you're coming from; I just thought you put it together really well. Stripped of the snarky irony of pretending to be diplomatic it really does make quite the concise little rant. The reason I needed to think about it was to try to get an equally brief summary of one important idea not quite touched by your summary. What's missing from the picture is the idea that conservatives and progressives are both inculcated by the very same processes with a shared foundational meme complex of "liberalism;" they share the liberal arc of history toward justice point of view. It is because conservatives are in fact "liberals" in their worldview that they can't conserve the status quo against Progressives. All they can do is prevent progress from back-sliding. Conservatism is the "drag" against which progressives draw the buggy of society along toward the right side of history....

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 26, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I'm not disagreeing with any of your factual statements. My question wasn't intended even to work in conjunction with the opening post to which your comment was addressed, nor aimed toward your comment itself. I have seen you post toward quite a few topics, very often using similar factual statements from an obviously associated collection of works. You know your sources very well and present them together along with your own commentary, generally in a way that's related to the topic at hand. That's all that I meant by "argument." Sort of the formal/legal/logic usage. I was asking you an question totally unrelated to the topic about your personal perspective. I was trying to ask what shade of lens your comprehension and knowledge has installed into your world-viewing framework. Mine are kind of rose colored, and smudged with classical liberalism, individualism, libertarianism, constitutionalism, a bit of Christian traditionalism, etc, almost none of which I retain any confidence as to their "truth." I was wondering if you had a lens that colors your interpretation of things, and if it has a standard name. I'm not talking about something it would be necessary to defend through argumentation; I'm just trying to look at what you present from a perspective similar to your own, but I haven't been able to figure out your angle over the months. Sorry to have bothered you.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley I don't know. I'm asking if your facts are toward a point. You've presented thousands of words of argument to these pages, confidently so, but I'm yet utterly unable to grab hold of your point. Toward what succinct idea are you arguing?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley State a term currently in use, or coin a phrase that would be commonly understood, that would convey to an open minded reader an idea of your ideology.

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

@Josf-Kelley Leanings, tilt, slant

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

govols comments on Mar 25, 2020:

Naomi, can you offer definitions for your terms conservative and progressive?

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

That was as close to a "rant" as I've ever witnessed from you, and points all well made and taken. Outstanding! When I'm not on my phone, and after some thought, I'll rejoin the conversation. I love this thread you started....

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

govols comments on Mar 25, 2020:

Naomi, can you offer definitions for your terms conservative and progressive?

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

@Naomi Social reforms are not the same as liberal ideas. Can you define, compare, or contrast those phrases?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Josf-Kelley comments on Mar 25, 2020:

At the time of the Revolution in America the words progressive and conservative roughly mean the opposite meaning when compared with modern usage of those words. Past: Conservative: Religious Intolerance Progressive: Religous Tolerance Present: Conservative: Nationalist in opposition to...

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

Can you state or coin, without providing argument, a name for your ideological bent?

Was the American Revolution a progressive or a conservative movement? What is your interpretation?

Xtra comments on Mar 25, 2020:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-revolutionary-war-was-conservative

govols replies on Mar 25, 2020:

That article strikes me as some serious historical revision and rationalization.

This is my first post

The_Z-Man comments on Mar 24, 2020:

I like how Joe Rogan is listed as IDW, as in Intellectual Dark Web. My goodness

govols replies on Mar 24, 2020:

It's a...generous place.

This may be the first time in our history that a candidate for president is literally incoherent, ...

RCGibb comments on Mar 24, 2020:

https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-top-10-lies-about-president-trumps-response-to-the-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR17W1eae7CPc88zTKUKgAhyFtXWMJTszewGO3JtDFVdDAtwFpuFkqF45zQ The Top 10 Lies About President Trump’s Response to the Coronavirus

govols replies on Mar 24, 2020:

I sometimes want to just start tossing matches.

What do you fear more.

purdyday comments on Mar 24, 2020:

*its effect on our pyschological, social, political and economic health* The one thing that we must invoke and defend, no matter what is coming, the one thing that no other nation has, the thing that is more than just words, The Constitution of the United States of America.

govols replies on Mar 24, 2020:

The US constitution is broken beyond any possible hope for repair. The actual forms of our governance aren't remotely discoverable by even the most careless and frivolous exploration of the text.

What do you fear more.

govols comments on Mar 24, 2020:

I'm afraid nothing will be significantly different once the fallout settles.

govols replies on Mar 24, 2020:

@Naomi, I don't know. Yes. Many might figure out that colleges are doing education all wrong. It may be figured out that many non-critical positions are actually non-productive and unnecessary expenses. A HELL OF A LOT of new information is going to become available. Massive glaring frauds, stupidities, inefficiencies and injustices will be exposed. And I'm afraid nothing will really change.

As Creator of ALL things, God is not afraid to take responsibility for how this all turns out.

govols comments on Mar 24, 2020:

At minimum, it's unfolding as it is-will.

govols replies on Mar 24, 2020:

@dmatic Interesting question. I don't have the foggiest idea, but it's certainly "becoming" more so than "being." I sometimes the "plan" differs as a function of our own aimlessness. Even if the conclusion remained constant, unchanging, the process would vary by input.

Has anybody played around with Mencius Moldbug?

Naomi comments on Mar 19, 2020:

Hello. I found the following description of Moldbug. He sounds like a right-wing extremist...? *An American programmer and blogger. His blog, Unqualified Reservations (2007–13) became the basis of the small but instructive “neoreactionary” movement. With its origins in programmer culture ...

govols replies on Mar 22, 2020:

@Naomi, did you ever complete your introduction to Theory series? Are you still pursuing it? Moldbug is doing exactly to progressivism what Critical Theory has been doing to traditionalism: revealing its power structures and ripping at their seams.

Has anybody played around with Mencius Moldbug?

Naomi comments on Mar 19, 2020:

Hello. I found the following description of Moldbug. He sounds like a right-wing extremist...? *An American programmer and blogger. His blog, Unqualified Reservations (2007–13) became the basis of the small but instructive “neoreactionary” movement. With its origins in programmer culture ...

govols replies on Mar 22, 2020:

@Naomi Is your mind a little bent yet?

This guy managed to experience and put together the story of the modern reactionary movement.

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 20, 2020:

At least he can admit that he's a reactionary.

govols replies on Mar 20, 2020:

@WilyRickWiles What you stand for is in reaction to the history of our current here and now, just like them. You just think of your reaction as the continuum of progress, not quite done. You are reacting to what is. They are reacting to what is becoming.

This guy managed to experience and put together the story of the modern reactionary movement.

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 20, 2020:

At least he can admit that he's a reactionary.

govols replies on Mar 20, 2020:

Can you, too, admit that you're a reactionary?

This guy managed to experience and put together the story of the modern reactionary movement.

WilyRickWiles comments on Mar 20, 2020:

At least he can admit that he's a reactionary.

govols replies on Mar 20, 2020:

Is there something wrong with being a reactionary?

[theroot.com]? The Racist History of Pandemics

iThink comments on Mar 20, 2020:

I suppose sickle cell anemia is racist too?

govols replies on Mar 20, 2020:

EVERYTHING is racist.

Has anybody played around with Mencius Moldbug?

Naomi comments on Mar 19, 2020:

Hello. I found the following description of Moldbug. He sounds like a right-wing extremist...? *An American programmer and blogger. His blog, Unqualified Reservations (2007–13) became the basis of the small but instructive “neoreactionary” movement. With its origins in programmer culture ...

govols replies on Mar 19, 2020:

@Naomi Are you an open-minded progressive?

Has anybody played around with Mencius Moldbug?

Naomi comments on Mar 19, 2020:

Hello. I found the following description of Moldbug. He sounds like a right-wing extremist...? *An American programmer and blogger. His blog, Unqualified Reservations (2007–13) became the basis of the small but instructive “neoreactionary” movement. With its origins in programmer culture ...

govols replies on Mar 19, 2020:

He's a right wing theorist, yes. Extremely so. And really fun to read.