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Are private security militias the future of public safety?

With cities from Minneapolis to Seattle drastically cutting their police department budgets, law abiding citizens are asking the obvious question of how this will impact their safety. Gun sales across the country have skyrocketed as people prepare to take the law in their own hands. Neighborhoods are beginning to consider alternatives to police such as citizen walks and private security firms. Who knows, maybe there will be a tech startup for "Uber for guns" where subscribers can summon independent contractors, including formerly employed police officers, to the rescue.

What do you think is going to happen?

How are you preparing for potential defunding of police?

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Admin 8 Aug 10
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Private security militia's are definitely NOT a proper replacement for police, bc it means that the rich will assemble their own militias and start ruling like a local lord. Also mob rule will get legitimized. Reintroduction of feudalism and anarchistic chaos is not fitting a modern society,

Corjova Level 6 Aug 11, 2020

Well... we have wealth and income inequality, why not security inequality? 😉

@Admin Bc security is a common good, a fundamental item of the 'social contract' that legitamizes a state.

@gari The 'powers that be' are mayors and governors who consciously give immunty to rioters. These 'powers' don't want security nor public safety as they are trying to cause revolutions and havoc. Perhaps these 'powers' look to private militia's they own and command themselves bc they too want to have immunity....


At some point, someone is going to take proactive steps to stop these domestic terrorists. There will be an investigation, and if the person is caught, there will be a trial. If the jury has anyone with courage, the trial will result in a hung jury or an acquittal. After that happens a few times, people will realize that a proactive response to these domestic terrorists will not result in prosecution. When we reach that point, the terrorists will be facing sniper fire whenever they start to hurt people. If the block a street, they'll start falling to these shots. When they come out in large numbers, they will be mowed down in large numbers. At some point, they'll realize that they can't survive in a society full of people who are determined to stop them as they are to destroy this society. When that happens, we'll go back to regular law and order.

I need to read up on how Russian, China, and Germany handled transitions into harsh law enforcement. Many progressives believe that Trump is just waiting to start using the Fed to enforce law and order.

@Admin Russia and Germany both started with these kinds of riotous behavior on the part of communist and Nazi supporters. They broke down law and order through this kind of behavior. The end result is that the rioters took over these countries. At that point, some of the leaders were in the position to order more of this kind of violence under the guise of law. The more idealistic of the original rioters, both communist and Nazi, were executed because they might see the evil outcome of what they had done and try to lead a counter-revolt. China was largely destroyed by Japan in the years leading up to WWII and during the war years. As China came out of the war, the communists fought the remaining leaders of the traditional government and won.

None of these countries ever had a tradition of freedom as the United States had for two hundred years. That puts them in a different starting point, so the transition to "harsh law enforcement" isn't exactly going to be analogous in these countries.

We have had rioters attacking innocent people just driving on the streets for a couple of months now. We've had rioters destroying businesses. We now have rioters pointing firearms at innocent citizens going about their business. The rioters are not peaceful citizens expressing a point of view. They are domestic terrorists. For them to complain about anything done to stop them being "harsh" is hypocritical. They have escalated the level of violence to the point that shooting them is the next step unless the whole country is just going to submit to their jack boots on our necks.

If the federal government comes into these cities, arrests people who have committed violence or made threats against innocent citizens, and jails them for a long time, that's not "harsh law enforcement." That's protecting the citizens from the threat of lethal force by rioters. For the progressives to pretend otherwise is just a rhetorical ploy on their part.

In the 90's, a guy named Eric Rudolph was bombing abortion clinics. I think he was also behind the bombing of the Olympic games in Atlanta. Technically, opposition to abortion is a conservative position, but no one else in the anti-abortion movement endorsed bombing clinics. I don't remember whether Rudolph was executed or whether he is still in jail but putting him down hard was not "harsh law enforcement." Putting him down hard was justice.

Well, first ... they TOOK the People’s Guns ...

@WftRight Thanks for the primer! Fortunately, we have live video of the Portland "protesters" so the rest of the country can see for themselves what's going on. Same thing with the looters in Chicago.


There have been towns before who had such dismal police departments that they defunded them. Citizens learned to protect themselves. For the Land of the Free we have the largest prison system, longest list of crimes, and the largest police force. Americans have become institutionalized. They no longer can even imagine that people in other countries don't live like this.

They imagine without police on every block that their neighbors will run lawless.

Even with police bad people do bad things. Laws don't stop crime. Conservatives only get this when they are defending their ownership of rifles."Gun laws don't stop gun violence." What stops crime is the raising of moral children and communities that share a value system.

Even in ancient times people understood that good people don't need laws and bad people won't obey them anyway.

I agree with you that there are diminishing returns for having a large police force. It is possible that cutting officers will not result in much more crime... although there is an unmistakable message that the chance to be caught in a crime will be lower with fewer police.

"They imagine without police on every block that their neighbors will run lawless."- @ThomasinaPaine

Really good points. I think right now the first line of thought I have is this idea that our country will descend into lawlessness. To me it's not convincing for people to be calling for the defunding/ abolish the police because it leads to violence, using violent measures to accomplish that goal.

Also, definitely agree with you on the prison/ institutionalized system we've just come to accept. People are more complicated than that. Plus, rehabilitation is very rarely accomplished through these systems. Just a revolving door of crime.

Finding the balance in all this isn't going to happen overnight. I'm all for implementing more preventative community based programs working with police, though.


In Arkansas we aren't defunding our police now or in the near future. i am a gun owner and carry where ever i go. I try to be aware of my surroundings and have a plan in place in case of a home invasion. I respect our police and thank them whenever i can but i understand that i am the first line of defense for myself and my family. Be trained and stay prepared. Its the world we live in.

Do you live in a rural area? I've lived in both red (farm) and blue (liberal city) states and personal protection seems different. Then again, gun sales are crazy everywhere now.

@Admin I live about 3 miles from a small city of around 33k. i do live in a community but you could say its more rural. i do think the attitude is different here than more liberal states. Even tho we have a rhino govenor right now we take out liberties very seriously. I can't imagine how anyone thinks our society can survive without a police force. Then again the progressive leaders backing this nonsense with always have their personal protection. Does anyone really think this is about anything but destroying this republic and turning it into a socialist state?


“Buy a gun, learn how to use it.”

Wishful thinking as long as the legal system guarantees that you will be put through hell if you actually do use it. Never mind if you are legitimately defending yourself. Even in states that have lenient approaches to gun ownership and the idea of defending yourself, you still will be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.

It will take some states completely revising their thinking on citizens defending their life and property. When the bodies of perps start piling up, the word will get out that those states are a bad career choice for criminals. Then, maybe the hapless throngs under the boot of the Lori Lightfoots and Kim Foxxes in soft-on-crime states will have their own Light-On-Damascus-Road conversion moment and either move (the quick fix) or vote differently next time (the enduring fix.)

Only then will we be ready to rethink armed citizen groups taking on responsibility for safety.

A good defense is a good offense.

@Admin "After the bodies pile up"........

It is critical to understand your state laws regarding citizen use of force. Yes, likely you will be cuffed and have to respond to questions. Best advice is to say nothing without counsel unless you are very well versed in the law. Most people only think they are, and one wrong statement can be your undoing. I hope never to be forced to use a weapon, but am fortunate to live in a very red state, small community where a homeowner is more often than not given the benefit of the doubt, and most bad actors are not strangers to law enforcement to begin with.

I have to refer to what happened to the McKloskys in Missouri where the man and wife held off a mob of rioters from coming onto their property as he brandished an AR15 and she a pistol. The state has a Castle Doctrine and follows the 2nd amendment yet the local DA went ahead with charges against them. It has turned into a political debacle with the Soros backed DA trying to jail this couple by any means while the Governor has pledged to pardon them if the case goes forward. So even with the law on your side it doesn't always mean that the police or DA can't charge you.


YOU are responsible for your a gun, learn to train and USE it.


This is a third world situation forming. So far the defunding of police has yet to form into a clear cut plan of what to institute in its place. There are idealist plans for communities but that is all. I feel that human nature will rear its head in the vacuum of a lawless society where only the strong and sociopathic rule. At best things will devolve into vigilante justice and mob rule. Just look at the Chad/Chaz zone in Seattle when Raz Simone rose up to become a de facto policing force. The end result will be that everyone will have to look out for themselves or as a small protected group and even then its all left up to chance... and firepower.


People who value their freedom above all left these cities some time ago. More are fleeing now. Unfortunately many bring political views that created this problem with them. They then become a threat to the safety of the communities they flee to if they vote.

Interesting... you mean Liberals who leave liberal cities to get "safety" in conservative places are liberalizing the places they move to?

@Admin It's happening int he Fort Worth burb I live in now, which is why I'm moving out into the Texas hinterlands in the near future.

@stratman You can't run forever. Become resilient and resist the #RedGuards. No one ever took their country back by running away.


Well, I suppose it depends on how far out of hand it gets.

The problem is, if “Private Security” and “Militia” begin to replace Police, how is a person to know which they are? Whether they’re legitimate?
That they’re not ACTUAL Criminals dressed up and pretending to be “Official”?

For about $15,000 I could go a few miles and buy a Complete “Official Uniform”, a Tin Badge, a Complete Equipment Belt with Holster including a Baton & Flashlight AND a Fully Tricked Out, Complete, Very Lightly Used, Police Vehicle, and with a quick stop at a Press and Stick Signage Shop, have a Completely Official Looking Vehicle.
I could probably get that all done before Dinner. All I need to do then is put my favorite firearm in that holster and I’m ready to go ... and WHO could stop me?

I think that if things get too out of hand, I’ll simply start Open Carrying and God Help the person who goes to pull a gun on me because one of us will be dead seconds later.
Why would I hesitate?

The thing about uniforms and badges and a Legitimate Police Force is that you can recognize them pretty easily ... usually ... you can recognize their cars, their uniforms, their badges ... you can tell they’re not the Mall Cop, not a Rent-A-Cop, not Somebody “Pretending” ...

If it gets to the point where I don’t know what I’m looking at and they go for their gun ... it won’t be time to wonder ... it will be time to shoot.

My post is slightly tongue-in-cheek and I really hope that it doesn't come to private security. I'm also concerned that civilians will not feel safe and have to escalate their personal protection. Risking jail to protect oneself is also not a fair trade.


Localised phenomina, election year and lockdown (which is like solitary confinement which is where the term stir crazy comes from). I think it depends on the election outcome, cities may collapse which is a sign of civilisational collapse but it can be stopped/reversed.

Do you see cities heading towards Detroit with demographic shifts driving out white "diversity"?

Yes and not just USA. Take London. 85% of commuters working from home untill the new year, no international tourism for 3 years according to an airline pilot I know, the hospitality business has collapsed.

Add to that spiralling crime and a mayor that more worried about hate speech than acid attacks and weve got a recipe for an economic black hole emerging, this is without all the bullshit of scraping the Police like De Blasio has in NY.

@Admin if there is "white flight" from Portland and Seattle, the cities will be empty! Whites are 90% or more of these cities. Detroit, was a downtown, that was left to influx of people looking for work in the factories. The even mid wealthy had their own suburbs, and do to this day! I lived through this example of destroying a City took Years and years.....


Evrything I am hearing central london is empty, traffic levels are at the 1950s rate, a decade after the luftwaffe bombed it to the ground, almost. True all Cities are different and ive known for a longtime that Portland is stuffed full of white middle class weirdos, its just how many will match a "Perfect storm" and where and who will this spill onto.

Brussels is aboout a third radical muslim and thats where the Euro parliament mainly is, could get spicy over the next few years. And thn theres Ergogan with his hateful eyes on Europe.

@CookieMonster . It is to be admitted you live in a much more dangerous neighborhood, if you are in Europe. America, is carrying on a (small d) democratic experiment, for the benefit of the world, and our own ignorant, through no fault of their own citizens. The Intellectuals in this Country get very bored with their cramped office on Campus, and like to dabble in our Politics. You are getting a full view of their brilliance and the caliber of their followers, er students! The election of some one they do not like, is a time for them to test their latest in tactics on how to win the day. So is a toss up!

@Machiavelliwar I think with regular repeated episodes( like every night for 2 months) of violence and the hamstringing of law enforcement it wouldn't have taken Detroit "years and years."

@Geofrank . You a General in this army? Detroit, should be studied by you! The reason the cities buildings were burned to the ground, was because the rioters shot the firefighters! You could try that too!


Private Militia does not solve anything, the job remains the same, the things that need to be done remains the same, the issues that crop up over doing the job remains the same.

@dd54 I don't say this as a knock against Militia. I am sure they can do the job. I am saying that the use of force complaints will still exist, because you have people that will not comply. Use of force still ends up with people hurt or killed and then complaints of racist militia.

@dd54 My misunderstanding then, I thought the topic was replacing the police with militia and not supplementing them with militia. Though I still don't believe it will change how the media portrays, whomever is doing the job when it comes to reasonable use of force on people who are involved in criminal activity.


"Who knows, maybe there will be a tech startup for "Uber for guns" where subscribers can summon independent contractors, including formerly employed police officers, to the rescue."- @Admin

🤔Could be interesting. Maybe throw in some discounts on shared deliveries, as well as an option to drive you free of charge to the nearest airport so you can leave the country. Logic.🧐(just joking of course)

Seriously though, I never thought we'd actually reach a point in our country that "defund/ abolish" the police would be seriously considered in the middle of nationwide riots and violence. Just look at how that's working out in Portland, for example.

Portland has been redirecting all of their policing in a more preventative and community inclusiveness for years now. In 2013 they began the Behavioral Mental Health Unit as well as several other programs to work in unity with the community instead of being an intimadating force. I view these types of programs as being beneficial and a step in the right direction to lessening our prisons as well as improve relationships between community and police.

Yet, it does also operate in the assumption that police can be fazed out if the numbers drop low enough. Humans are more chaotic than that. A balance of both is needed to prevent the very riots we've been seeing go too far. (Which they have)

Honestly, I don't know what I'll do if something like Abolish happens. I'm all for adding additional programs, but like the Chicago Police Chief recently said, "We can do both". (Meaning police and additional programs)

Also, considering how "bleepy" they've been treating the police, American flag, monuments, as well as violence, shootings, and attacks, I'm not inclined to even be supportive of programs let alone shed a single coin from the police forces toward blm. (Obviously that's subject to change. Just now I'm feeling a little irratated at the idea of taking orders)

My husbands Army, got a lot of military and police among our family and friends that have been treated like crap on social media. I just find the whole situation heartbreaking tbh. These protesters have no idea how free and good they have it. In other countries they would have been ended before they even began.

I think one of the reasons I don't know what I'd do is because I can't believe it's even a logical possibility.

I agree that using protests, riots, and looting to get the public to want to reduce police departments seem poorly thought out. Or fighting with the police to get them to be nicer. Actions have consequences. I didn't know that Portland has been actively trying to improve police behavior for 7 years AND still BLM is unhappy about them. Either the changes are ineffective or BLM doesn't care?

@Admin Yeah, Portlands got some pretty rough history. But, they also have made some pretty significant changes. The Behavioral Mental Health Unit is one of the ones that they've been continuing to work on for years now. It's just, these things take time. From the Portland Police Department website, it looks like they've been taking a majority of steps in the direction blm is advocating for quite a while now.

I think these type of programs are great, actually. It's just about finding the right balance. When Wheeler first addressed the riots at the very beginning he praised them for being "mostly" non violent. Frequently he's put the blame on everyone else but Portland. All of the focus has been (in multiple cities) to meet the demands of the protesters. Plus, police officers who have been pillars of their communities have been dehumanized by MSM and disregarded in their communities. I could speculate round in circles as to why. This is not a good starting point of this leftist ideal. I'm not excited about our country being controlled by mob rule.

Safe community policing doesn't work on mob rule mentalities. It doesn't mean these programs are doomed to fail. It just means that you have to go at these two vastly different situations with a different mind set imo. Sometimes you have to be the enforcer. (Doesn't have to be leathal. Just need to clear the mobs) Any kind of additional changes to the police departments should have come after the riots ceased.

@Admin (Just realized I forgot to cite my source from the mental health pdx "2013 Brian Lindstrom and Jason Renaud release the documentary “Alien Boy: The Life and Death of James Chasse,” detailing the police-caused death of a man with schizophrenia." This death was the push to expedite change as well as implement the program. It has been revised a few times over the years.)

@saramarylop3z You must be kidding! But some how I know you are not. The poor beaten up Portland policeman who was home because of a shooting, was do ed, and people showed up with guns, one tried to shoot him at his back door, he had no gun to protect himself or his family. AND, he apologized. He excused the ***** who tried to kill him. Is this the success, you are talking about?

@Machiavelliwar Are you talking about the shooting in Wisconsin a couple nights ago?

"A Black Wisconsin police officer said he was nearly killed Saturday after a group of protesters gathered outside his girlfriend’s house where he was staying and fired several shots inside."-FOX news

I'm unsure how that has anything to do with Portland besides it all being blm, which I'm against 100%.

@saramarylop3z . .i am. .sorry for mixing up the is getting a bit hard to keep track of whose on first.....Third base!

@Machiavelliwar you and me both! Seriously I've been messing up CHAZ with Portand, Best with Chicago. It's crazy.


The question assumes the entire country is as insane as the extreme leftists that sit on city councils in democrat run cities, it isn’t. The few remaining sane people who still identify as “democrat” will flee these cities on the brink of implosion and move to cities that are run by people who haven’t lost their flippin minds and very likely switch parties. We will always need a professional police force.

Andyman Level 8 Aug 11, 2020

We are lucky to have cities to test out different ideas... even if it leads to problems. The rest of the country can watch these experiments proceed. When it comes to federal changes, then we have to be more cautious.

I wouldn’t call it “lucky” that incredibly selfish and narcissistic people can destroy our nations cities because it makes them look good in the eyes of incredibly stupid people. Defunding the police isn’t an “experiment”, it’s a Marxist plot to collapse our society so it can be replaced by their nightmare. These people should be shot for treason and in a better age and time they would have been.


Invest in precious metals, like lead...

2peros Level 8 Aug 11, 2020

I've heard it's going fast 😉


Don't know why some below complain about large police forces these days. If you used illegal drugs the last 50 years, you are the reason for the police. And don't tell us about the legalize drug crap. They did that in Germany pre-WWII and look what that got them.

It's interesting that drug legalization isn't being asked by BLM...

The legalized drug plan in use by Portugal rests on the state run rehabs for users. For those using there are strict laws on the amounts one can have in their possession. Of course all drugs are controlled and distributed by the state. Meanwhile the police concentrate on shutting down illegal smuggling operations. So its not just a matter of legalizing drugs but to offer an alternative solution to dealing with drug users.


Private police forces are quite popular in places like Buenos Aires. They work quite well.

Popular, like their football. Sometimes some one is injured....a bit or a lot....So, much fun for the tourist. Should we all travel like Jeff Bezos, you might call a system of hired body guards as working....for Joe nobody...not much!

Its an interesting concept for here in the USA. We've already established gated communities. As public school teachers without a large amount of vested time in state pension plans consider the very lucrative market of private pod or bubble tutoring positions..... whose to say our embattled and defunded police forces won't look at a similiar business model?

@BigPawBullets You are right. Ca. has made all Gig jobs illegal. So, make it a sole proprietorship. Your "in Business"!


Initially the responsibility for personal safety falls on the individual. Given only one choice, I voted “buy a gun.” This has always been true, as in the midst of a criminal act, police take time to respond, time that you may not have. Ideally, having a trained and competent police department is the ideal complement to personal defense. Private contractors, neighborhood watch etc do not carry the force of law, and would result in far more conflicts ending in violence. It is not the weapons of officers that suppress illegal activity. It is their ability to bring to bear the legitimate force of our legal system to arrest, try and if necessary, incarcerate criminals.

In many communities, the backlog of processing infractions/criminals is demoralizing police in that many arrests don't end up with charges.


A guy who is old, fat and arthritic doesn't have much of a fighting chance in a Hobbesian world. Sure, I have arms and ammo, but any serious assault is inescapable.

I believe the people don't want, and will vote against such danger to their lives and property.

Listening to the interviews with Portland's suburb ladies, I am beginning to have my doubts. This virus has proved helpful to one group. Those who think any one older then 75 is expendable!


We... vote in politicians who actually do what you want?

Hanno Level 8 Aug 11, 2020

NZers are idiots who cannot see further than their noses.

We think the world now notice us because of our “famous”
PM and our “wonderfull” Covid response... so we will vote for her again even though she has failed at everything and broken every election promise she made.

Our opposition party is economically good but sold us out to China and other foreigners for the quick buck... so they are not much better...

Sigh... I was part of a young party who wanted to make a change however the founder retired and the party were overrun by children...
NZ politics is a very sorry state of affairs.

They are using Covid to push a lot or laws that otherwise would not have succeeded.
NZ are so scared of Covid, no one is questioning anything.
We are making very big changes.... if labour wins next election NZ will significantly change... and not for the better.
Cross the Rubicon has been doing his best.

Bout 3 seconds after they are able to get their hands on it!

NZ now force quarantine anyone who tests positive... I say that is kidnapping... rest of NZ Clap their hands.
Quarantine means you are kept under guard at a hotel for two weeks.


The idea is to set up a defense net for all who wants to join in. Something like that is already being created, on servers that cannot be easily attacked. Situations reports, coordination of local groups, warnings and response teams of local volunteers are in the plan. Look at, it's a bunch of former Spec Ops who have combat training schools. That plus 2A, and the general population being armed to the teeth, will be a pretty interesting set up for a future Do Si Do

Yes, I know Mike 🙂


Seattle: Is 1% of a $400 million budget a drastic cut?

Minneapolis: Is 0.6% of a $193 million budget a drastic cut? Also a police department reorganization ballot initiative was stalled until at least after the election.

Also, to answer your question regardless of the premise, unlikely.

The cuts for Seattle will be in 2021... they're unable to cut more then about 3% of budget for 2020 due to contractual costs. Police Chief will resign tomorrow.


There will be more chaos because of our multicultural society, whether it’s privatized police or the current public system we have now. Police are largely useless and I think people are starting to see they usually cause more harm than not regardless of race. It’s going to be up to you, the individual to provide protection for yourself. As you establish a community, there will be individuals who you can trust to keep watch, but I guess that’s how things used to be in the old days.

It must emotionally difficult to be a police officer where the backlog of processing/jails can't keep up with the crime rate.


It sounds to me like this is establishing branches of la cosa Nostra, similar to its establishment in Sicily. Paid to look the other way, volunteer to see what you are told to see.


Private militias?
You men like like those in modern-day Colombia: on the one hand there are those forces affiliated with the drug cartels, existing to protect their criminality, and on the other those of the landlords created to resist kidnappings and extortion, i.e. the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia.

Yeah, or perhaps a protection ring/mafia can fill in the void? 😉


I think this was a long time coming, as the anti-police sentiment is growing stronger by the day. Recent events have got both sides thinking (the left insisting upon defunding all police departments while the right is preparing for any possible consequences that could follow such actions), and eventually given enough time gone by there most likely will be some sort of compromise(s) made. As someone who favors the free market system, I'm generally in favor of privatization, so the concept of a private sector security/police force appeals to me.

As for any preparation measures I'm taking, definitely stocking up on ammunition along with the typical food stuffs, and first aid supplies. Within the next two or so years will be looking to move away from the city. Recently there was outrage in my home city of Allentown when an APD Officer was caught on camera kneeing a suspect (that video evidence was bogus by the way, didn't appear to be wrongdoing on the officer's part), and in turn that sparked protests in the city which made national headlines. Thinking about moving into the country, and possibly building a new home.

If you don't mind me asking, any measures you plan on taking during these trying times @Admin?

Been looking to get another Glock but seems sold out here. It’s unclear how much more safe one is with a gun but it does help with sleeping. Things will change if “protesters” go residential.

@Admin Change indeed...

Yeah, I heard one of my local gun stores was out of stock on certain items, in particular ammunition. Guns are selling like hot cakes, even alot of left-leaning individuals have become first time gun owners.

@SpikeTalon My close friend is a Santa Cruz CA ex-hippy who bought his first gun recently - basically a sawed off shotgun. That city has a huge increase in street crime and homelessness due, in part, to a very liberal local government.

@Admin Not a liberal local government... a progressive one. Progressive policies (they actually should be referred to as aggressives, because that crowd is truly pushy) have been seriously damaging major cities like that. The true liberals (classic liberals) are fairly benign, it's the far-left progressive brand I take issue with. It seems these days just about every major US city has seen an increase in crime. I can't help but wonder what tomorrow will bring...

stock up on Heritage (or Heirloom) seeds ... and tools ... for when you are out in the country

Yes ... as well as lots of “Seeds” for hunting purposes ...
For “Tools” I’d suggest a couple/few long guns with scopes ... maybe even NV Scopes ... shotguns and handguns.
Something that can quickly dig and fill holes would be good too.

Being able to grow a Crop is Important.
Being able to Keep What You Grow ... is More Important.

@skaarda, @Admin
Tell your friend to go out in the woods and run a few rounds through it.
Sawed offs are great for very close work but they’re a bit ... unpredictable ... and often kick like a mule.
Unfortunately, almost any sort of handgun outranges a sawed off by a lot.

@Bay0Wulf You're right about that, considerable recoil from sawed-off shotguns.

@Admin Thought you might find this article interesting-

@Bay0Wulf agreed re. the kind of tools you refer to.... also, having the means to build/rebuild/fix whatever survives with you, get yourself a generator, and stock up some on fuel with some stabilizer ...

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