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Under what time and circumstance is the use of violence warranted?

The last few days have seen protests at a level of emotion not seen since the BLM protests last summer. In both circumstances, the participants felt they were fighting injustice. What's your take?

Note: please do not consider this question nor any discussion in this thread as inciting violence of any kind or time.

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If your life faces serious immediate danger (in other words someone attempting to terminate your existence), then violent actions would be warranted. In the cases of the BLM and DC Capitol riots, violence was not necessary, and the police would not have responded as they did had the protesters remained peaceful.


When it is to prevent death or harm.


According to the U.N. millions people could die because of the policies Bidden proposes that could reverse a 20 year trend of reduced poverty and better standards of living around the world. The economy as it turns out is far more complicated and fragile than the left understands. It is no coincidence that as capitalism has expanded so has the quality of life for millions.

"David Beasley, Executive Director of the World Food Programme (WFP), warned of alarming global hunger and food insecurity, with the number of people “marching towards starvation” spiking from 135 million to 270 million as the pandemic unfolded. He stressed that 2021 will be catastrophic. “Famine is literally on the horizon and we are talking about the next few months,” he said. Noting how the WFP stepped in to deliver aid when the global airline industry shut down at the start of the pandemic, he warned anew that 2021 risks becoming the worst humanitarian crisis year since the founding of the United Nations, “and we will have to step up”.

Striking a similar note, Mark Lowcock, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, said that in the absence of humanitarian assistance the lives of 235 million people are at stake — a 40 per cent increase, with poverty rising for the first time in 20 years while life expectancy will fall. It would be a significant achievement to avert a major famine. Despite $4 billion raised so far for the Global Humanitarian Response Plan for COVID-19, and some $2 billion distributed in social protection payments, the difference being made is much too small in relation to the challenge. The vaccine rollout must be done right. “Let’s not finance vaccines at the expense of food security programmes or routine vaccinations. That would make things worse,” he warned."


That possibility fits four square with the statements in the UN’s Agenda 21 and 2030, and the Rockefeller Foundation’s study in sustainable development.

When world organizations have advocated for a “reduction” in the global population a few million people less fits the bill whether a man-made pandemic or BG’s birth control drugs

The uninformed left. The Elites know and want the devastation.
Sadly a civil war will kill more. I suspect we will be playing into the hands of the Elites if we have one. The BLM has been threatening Biden voters. Let's try to unite with the uninformed who voted for him by accident. Few know what his presidency will entail. And--since we believe the election was stolen--we can't hold them responsible for electing him anyhow.
My BFF voted for Biden. She has been lied to and was upset and confused at the vitriol many of her evangelical friends have been expressing. Paul didn't rail against Caesar Nero--the man who had him beheaded.


Your right most people I talk to who voted for Biden are clueless, all they know is orange man bad.

you have to consider one simple fact: hunger does not affect rich people.


If Stalin was your president and Hitler was your vice president, hypothetically speaking, knowing the history books.... would you even ask that question?

George Orwell once said that the “English intelligentsia…can swallow totalitarianism because they have no experience of anything except liberalism…So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” Having experienced the reality of totalitarianism first-hand, Orwell knew all too well the ways in which people far removed from it employ “soothing phrases” to disguise more sinister ends. Of course, he would later coin the term “Newspeak” in his novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949). This was the totalitarian language created to meet the ideological requirements of English Socialism under Big Brother.

“The heirs of the French, English, and American revolutions had partly believed in their own phrases about the rights of man, freedom of speech, equality before the law, and the like, and have even allowed their conduct to be influenced by them to some extent. But by the fourth decade of the twentieth century all the main currents of political thought were authoritarian. The earthly paradise had been discredited at exactly the moment when it became realizable. Every new political theory, by whatever name it called itself, led back to hierarchy and regimentation. And in the general hardening of outlook that set in round about 1930, practices which had been long abandoned, in some cases for hundreds of years — imprisonment without trial, the use of war prisoners as slaves, public executions, torture to extract confessions, the use of hostages, and the deportation of whole populations — not only became common again, but were tolerated and even defended by people who considered themselves enlightened and progressive.”“Who controls the past controls the future.

Who controls the present controls the past.”

― George Orwell, 1984

"Under what time and circumstance is the use of violence warranted?"

How about self protection. The governments around the world are now technocratic communists and they will play a S/M game with their own people because they have been recruited into globalists Great Reset movements. There are few exceptions and off course governments will fight each other over who gets to be head of the world..... but they will oppress and sibilance anyone who oppose them in the process. Form medical experiments we are experiencing now, to lockdowns like we are all criminals, to day light robbery of your livelihood, to every other vile thing you can think off.

There is no moral safe guard or legal safe guard that applies to this enormous uncheck power. They are drunk on their own power and they can't help themselves , they want more power. Before their own hubris destroyed them , you will see violence and more violence.

The idea that there is some kind of position where you can virtue signal by saying I denounce violence, is naive at best. There is no such position. Communists do not care. They will send in the tanks.

BLM and Antifa that was state sponsored, trained and protected. Storming the capital, was done by payed agitators to set a trap and open door for oppression. People fell for the bait and heard mentality and adrenaline rush and confession did the rest.

You have to understand you are dealing with globalists technocratic communists. A private/public partnership. Who enable the mini tyrants around the world to do their thing. Do not kid yourself. They will not back down and will increase the oppression. And they care nothing of your morals , because they have none. You can't appeal to the morals of those who spend a lifetime avoiding it. Read history of Communist countries and oppression. Understand what you are dealing with.

“Communism is as crude an attempt to explain society and the individual as if a surgeon were to perform his delicate operations with a meat ax. All that is subtle in human psychology and in the structure of society (which is even more complex), all of this is reduced to crude economic processes. The whole created being—man—is reduced to matter. It is characteristic that Communism is so devoid of arguments that it has none to advance against its opponents in our Communist countries. It lacks arguments and hence there is the club, the prison, the concentration camp, and insane asylums with forced confinement.” ― Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Warning to the West

“You have to understand the nature of Communism. The very ideology of Communism, all of Lenin's teachings, are that anyone who doesn't take what's lying in front of him is a fool If you can take it, do so. If you can attack, strike. But if there's a wall, retreat. The Communist leaders respect only firmness and have contempt for persons who continually give in to them.

All Communist Parties, upon attaining power, have become completely merciless. But at the stage before they achieve power, it is necessary to use disguises.

“It is astonishing that Communism has been writing about itself in the most open way, in black and white, for 125 years, and even more openly, more candidly in the beginning. The book Communist Manifesto, for instance, which everyone knows by name and which almost no one takes the trouble to read, contains even more terrible things than what has actually been done. It is perfectly amazing. The whole world can read, everyone is literate, yet somehow no one wants to understand. Humanity acts as if it does not understand what Communism is, as if it does not want to understand, is not capable of understanding.” ― Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Warning to the West

"Under what time and circumstance is the use of violence warranted?"

Think of it like this. You are here able to express your opinion because someone long ago fought a war to make it possible for you to have that privilege. Now the generations have forgotten that. And they will be reminded about the effectiveness of violence as a tool of oppression and as a tool against oppression.... until they learn that time when talking solved anything is long gone. You can't shake hands with clinched fist. And those oppressing you are not like British Empire who has some moral left. These are communists. What Ghandi did to British, does not work against this enemey.

The only reason you have not seen tanks yet, is because they could do it without them. But if they fear they can't , tanks will be rolling. I guarantee you that. You may not want violence, but violent people want you and your total and complete submission. What do you do about it? Its up to you. But some will have to fight with guns and fists and others with pen, brush, keyboard and music. But oppression will increase and the communists regimes do not stop because they are so paranoid that they won't give you an inch if they are not pushed backed.

Look at CCP last few months in China. That is what is being exported around the world. Lockdowns? It started in China, now its worldview. What else do you think will be adopted by communism?

"Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them." - Assata Shakur

Freedom is never given; it is won. – A. Philip Randolph

Here is the latest story. Next they come for your kids and your body. No joke. Great Reset is in full swing in some countries more than others, and much like previous communists attempts of Great anything it ends in millions of dead. Great Leap Forward started by Mao in Communist china in 20th century was followed by Great Manmade Famine when millions of people starved to death and even resorted to cannibalism. If you think I'm excruciating.... revisit this post when the Great Depression happens. Bolschevik Boris and his comrades are doing all they can to doe story their community and they have just begun.

Police LOST Their MINDS 😳 2 Hotties £200 Fine 👮♂️ For Walk In Derby Park

It’s just a mask.
It’s just six feet.
It’s just two weeks.
It’s just non-essential businesses.
It’s just non-essential workers.
It’s just a bar.
It’s just a restaurant.
It’s just to keep from overwhelming the hospitals.
It’s just until the cases go down.
It’s just to flatten the curve.
It’s just a few inmates.
It’s just to keep others from being scared.
It’s just for a few more weeks.
It’s just church. You could still pray.
It’s just prayer.
It’s just until we get a vaccine.
It’s just a bracelet.
It’s just an app.
It’s just for tracing.
It’s just to let people know you’re safe to be around.
It’s just to let others know who you’ve been in contact with.
It’s just a few more months.
It’s just some more inmates.
It’s just a video.
It’s just a post.
It’s just an email account.
It’s just for protecting other from hate speech.
It’s just for protecting others from hurt feelings.
It’s just a large gathering but for protests.
It’s just a few violent protests.
It’s just a little micro chip.
It’s just a blood test.
It’s just a test.
It’s just a scan.
It’s just for medical information.
It’s just to store a vaccination certificate.
It’s just like a credit card.
It’s just a few places that don’t take cash.
It’s just so you can travel.
It’s just so you can get your driver’s license.
It’s just so you can vote.
It’s just mail-in voting.
It’s just a few more years.
It’s just a statue.
It’s just a monument.
It’s just a building.
It’s just a song.
It’s just a lyric.
It’s just an anthem.
It’s just a few words.
It’s just a piece of paper.
It’s just a book.
It’s just a movie.
It’s just a TV show.
It’s just a cartoon character.
It’s just a piece of cloth.
It’s just a flag.
It’s just a dog at a protest.
It’s just a clump of cells.
It’s just a fetus.
It’s just a religion.
It’s just a holiday.
It's just your guns.
It's just the police.
It's just the military
It's just your freedoms....gone forever.

And "It's just" the way they planned it.

2% of the impassioned can rule over the 98% apathetic.

It's not like we don't see it coming.

Just a historic reminder of how quickly things can develop and how bad they can get.

The Most Evil Men and Women in History - Episode Eight - Joseph Stalin (2002) (380p)

The Most Evil Men and Women in History - Episode Ten - Pol Pot (2002) (380p)

The Most Evil Men and Women in History - Episode Five - Adolf Hitler (2002) (380p)

@turnerjolene48 off course. By all means. Share away. 🙂


I'm not a violent person. I would become a violent person to protect my family and loved ones from physical harm. I might even become violent to protect a stranger from physical harm. -- And I'd be proud of myself in any of those circumstances!

Hypothetically, I might also become violent as an emotional response, if provoked. For example, if someone tried to rob me, I might become enraged and resort to violence. --But in that scenario, I wouldn't be proud of myself. I think that kind of emotional response is understandable... but it's not the right course to take.


I don't know where my line is. Certainly physical defense of myself and my close family and friends. Certainly not to impose my will on someone else who isn't a physical threat me.

But in between those? I don't know, and I fear to find out. I can only speculate. I am a former military officer. I was willing to use force to defend my country as part of an organized official system of national defense, subject to command authority, regulation, national policy, and laws of conflict.

I could see that happening in the future in some really bad ways. Were we to become parties to a hot civil war, of course I'd have to choose sides. Almost everyone would. Some feel they must already -- witness Antifa. It would be an organized system of community defense. What about offense? I don't know. Would a new civil war be fought to separate us into two independent nations? Fifty independent states? Some irregular balkanized areas? Or would it be to secure dominance of one group or set of ideologies over the entire country? Some of these seem a lot less attractive to me.

What is the end the violence would be aimed at? Would it be organized, directed at results, and restrained in scope? Would there be limits and self-policing against inevitable atrocities? I don't think the Left would restrain themselves. And I know human nature; the Right would be not clean either.

Nothing looks good ahead.

I'm still hoping against my pessimism for the future of the Republic, but it is already dead, and we're now arguing over the form of the funeral.

I too, swore to defend this Country and the Constitution as did every member of Congress!!!
I do not see the members of Congress upholding their oath, do you????
Are you ready to up hold your oath????

@Serg97 I understand. Am I ready to uphold my oath? I wonder if my oath is still valid, if it ever was. The constitution, in retrospect, has been a dead letter for seventy years and more; hollow ritual and procedure without real restraint against those in power.

@Augur2748 I can NOT disagree with you!!! I plan to uphold my oath anyway!!!

@Serg97 Then uphold it to the ideal it represents, not the dirty, compromised reality.

I feel this should be put into the laps of the multiculturalists. I will grant them good minded motivations, but history shows that people with vastly different cultures cannot easily and peacefully live close together. We now have two, or perhaps twenty, different americas, with radically different ideas of what it means to be americans, and their inclusive circles of "US" no longer overlap.


With regard to government - for the protection of individual rights. Against government - for the same reason.

The covid mandates offend the spirit and letter of the Constitution and the Declaration.

I respectfully disagree. Civil disobedience can be very effective. Especially long term. It worked for MLK and Gandhi. That said I strongly oppose the authoritarians and the dictatorial powers they have seized unlawfully.


Both circumstances?
It seems that “Both Circumstances” are the SAME Actors ...
BLM and AntiFa showed up at the Trump/WDC Rally and “Acted Out” to simply pervert the message.

The Left’s Brown Shirt Kids (Blackout Boize) created an “Issue” and the Press and, unsurprisingly, the Leftist Politicians are “Making Hay” with it ... JUST AS INTENDED

This, in many instances, this would be called “A False Flag Incident”.


When they come to “Re-Educate” me ... try to Force Me to Eat Their Bullshit ... there WILL be “Justifiable Violence”. I am NOT Meekly going to go. There are WORSE Things than Dying.

Look up Genocide.

Critical race theory ("racial sensitivity" ) training of kids and employees is very concerning.

I would tend to refer to your reply as a Massive Understatement.
However, CRT is only a tiny part of the thought process.
Consider Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451 coupled with George Orwell’s 1984 seem to be coming to a reality near you.
As a long term researcher and student of History ... tending towards the Earliest Versions Available ... I find the ReWrites and “Interpretations” to be a travesty already and now, they’re going to replace History with trash like 16-whateverthehell it is ... ?

Massive Understatement is itself a Massive Understatement.

@Admin I share in that concern.


Resorting to violence for a political end is a very serious undertaking that requires much thought and recognition of the onerous responsibility being taken because it will involve the deaths of many people. Those considering such a move have to have a thorough understanding of the reasons for it. The reasons must be publicly open for all to understand. Our founding fathers did so with the Declaration of Independence. Would those who invaded the capitol be able to give a full explanation of their reasons for doing so? I don't think so. The answers would be in the area of "We have had enough and are fed up." or "The election was stolen" or "The liberals are going to take away all our rights." This is not a movie where the good-guys storm in, take over and everything is peaceful and everybody is happy.


The sole purpose for government is to allow discourse and discussion without violence or the threat of violence even being considered. Everything else they do "for us" is bullshit.


I think all sides play each other. The politically involved such as organizers, influencers, and politicians use and abuse us. When its all over majority of the time we are to blame. And you know we are easy dispensable scapegoats to them.

Bpocky Level 3 Jan 8, 2021

Truth be told there.


Off-hand I would say self-defense, defense of family and home, or defense of another person. There may be others, but that's all that come to mind.

The violence we've seen over this past summer and this past week are unwarranted.


It's hard to know where the line is, but was violence justified in the case of the Capitol riots? Certainly not. Was the BLM violence more justified? Maybe. The fact that people of color are denied equal protection under the law can hardly be debated. And it's gone on for a long time, so there is a frustration factor involved. Not even body cams and associated technologies designed to prevent bad behavior on the part of the police has seemed to help. So I guess it boils down to how effective the violence is in promoting change. In my view, it's not effective and the BLM movement would do well to change their approach along the lines of MLK or Ghandi.

As far as the Capitol rioters, they were protesting what they viewed as election fraud and a stolen election. Until this election, there was little talk of election fraud on the scale claimed in this election. So, it's not like these protesters had suffered years of mass injustice. Trump supporters soon realized that voter fraud, fraud committed by actual voters, was not going to lead to the massive rejection of votes necessary to overturn the election. So they quickly turned their ire to the election officials, which was the only way that massive voting fraud could have occurred, claiming that voting machines changed votes or that election workers counted votes they shouldn't have.

Unfortunately, election officials are in a unique position. They are elected or appointed for the very purpose of seeing to it that elections are conducted within the rules set by their legislatures. They are somewhat like bankers. If I see someone entering a bank with an empty bag and maybe a gun and see them come out with bag full, I might conclude that the bank was robbed. I call the police. The first thing the police do is ask the banker whether his bank has been robbed. If he says "no", there are only two possibilities. Either the bank was not robbed and the discussion ends or the banker is hiding something and maybe participating in the robbery or both.

It's the same with election officials. If you ask an election official if he had suffered massive fraud in his district and he says "no," there can be only two possible outcomes. One, there really wasn't massive fraud or two, he's covering it up or directly participating in it or both. It's hard to believe that fraud on the scale claimed couldn't be readily detected. If it couldn't, then what's the point of even trying? So, that leaves maleficence on the part of the election workers as the only possibility. The proper way to handle this is to take your evidence to the AG of the State involved and convince he or she to open an investigation and ultimately bring charges against the perpetrators of the fraud. Of course, the election workers charged are innocent until proven guilty. Then and only then could an election remedy even be discussed. I know of no election officials in any State that are being investigated or charged.

Instead, the lawyers for Trump claimed fraud on TV, in the Press and at campaign rallies, but would not do it in court. Courts can sanction lawyers who claim a crime has been committed but then provide no evidence to back their claims. Moreover, they asked the courts to disenfranchise massive numbers of voters because of actions by people who had nothing to do with them. Voters who believed and did cast a legal vote at the time they cast it were going to have their votes thrown out. The courts were not going to do that. It would have been a massive miscarriage of justice, completely unfair to the voter, who had nothing to do with the alleged fraud. A proper remedy was not going to be to throw out a massive number of votes as the administration wanted.

What's alarming in this case is the unrealistic expectations on the part of Trump supporters, who understand little of their plight, and their easy propensity for being duped into thinking that they have suffered some grave injustice. It should be alarming to us all.

TyKC Level 7 Jan 8, 2021
  • "So I guess it boils down to how effective the violence is in promoting change. In my view, it's not effective and the BLM movement would do well to change their approach along the lines of MLK or Ghandi."

As far as one cause or another cause being seen as more or less justifiable, I disagree. I think both sides have valid grievances. However, violence being an effective tool in promoting change, I absolutely agree with you that it isn't.

Like you said, prolonged protests have led to violence. As much can be said by the iconic "I can't believe I'm still protesting this" signs. The majority of grievances have been left unheard, still, and the results are laughably ridiculous. Renaming football teams and maple syrup prevents police brutality how? Obviously, it doesn't, and thus the protests continue.

BLM may be seen as a more justifiable cause than those who are expressing their concerns over voter fraud, or the MAGA crowd at large, but there exists genuine grievances among them too that have been largely ignored and dismissed among the more progressive left. These protests have been a mix of a combination of reasons, one among them is voter fraud, but many of these issues have been growing over the last 13+ years. Ideological differences as well as a push to assimilate into the progressive mind set, has been met with a large amount of Americans who are simply saying "no".

With or without Trump, these issues are still very real as well as very much worth protesting in the minds of many Americans, myself included. However, as long as our political representatives, on both sides, continue to pin all the blame on one side or the other, true progress won't happen. It really is very concerning that the protests could get more violent.

I'm absolutely against all violence, both sides, and don't think it's going to actually get the change we desperately need among each other. Fighting each other is not worth it, imo. I, for one, don't hate anyone. I disagree with the progressive left ideology, but I don't want to physically attack them. I actually think they have much of the same problems I share with as far as our government goes. We just disagree on how it should be fixed.


When is violence OK? Bellum Justum -

  1. The violence committed must be equal to or less than the violence that is stopped (He was going to kill me and my family)
  2. Other options must be exhausted (Yelled at him through the door that cops were on the way)
  3. There must be a reasonable expectation of success through violence. (2A)
  4. The violence must be conclusive (he will never attack me again)

2020 BLM violence is much in part a symptom of COVID lockdowns. The Occupy Capitol violence is a symptom of election fraud (alleged and real) and COVID lockdowns.



Give me hope


Force may be used in self-defence only.
Incidentally, I think it is necessary to make a clear distinction between "genuine protesters" who are law-abiding citizens and respect peaceful protests and "mob protesters" who are prepared to act unlawfully, not to mention using violence. Also, they may be on the same side but I think that the genuine protesters should be honest and brave enough to condemn the mob protesters for their unlawful actions and not justifying or defending them.

Naomi Level 8 Jan 8, 2021

"Force may be used in self-defense only"

With all due respect, I think you are wrong. There are some people who are bullies in this world, what ever the unfortunate cause of their behavior, and too often what is required and not availed of is to beat them down soon and soundly lest they persist to the point that they feel their actions are acceptable and justified, at which point even greater violence may be required to bring them into line with the community standards of behavior. Most bullies know no other form of persuasion.

Hello Geofrank. Sounds like you're saying that you will take the law in your own hands when society fails you. I don't support vigilantism; vigilantism always sounds like a morally sanctimonious behaviour to me. We agree to disagree. 🙂

@Naomi In revisiting your comment, I'll back up and say that I was reacting to your first line. I guess I got triggered! 🙂 As far as "organized" protests are concerned I agree with you. However we should not forget that the root of vigilantism and vigilantes is vigilant. Vigilance is a survival skill that without an accompanying readiness to act decisively is only half realized. One should not be ready to lightly take the law into one's own hands but at the same time we must entertain the question: is man here to serve the law or is the law here to serve man? The law is frequently afflicted with blindspots and to quote a songwriter friend of mine, "Blind Justice has a black eye."


You get triggered??? Never! You're too cool-headed for that! Lol

I'm inclined to think that vigilantism or taking the law in one's own hands is a kind of morally superior behaviour that condones unlawful actions in the name of justice. There is somewhat an SJW ring to it. Lol That's just my interpretation though.

"Blind Justice has a black eye." I like that, and that is why the rule of law is an important principle, I think.


Your questions lately seem to be more divisive than purely inquisitive.

Level of injustice? Blm protests?

First, it’s disingenuous to say the burning, looting, destruction, injuries and even deaths during blm “protests” were anything at all similar to the march in Washington. Even if the suspected antifa morons were in fact Trump supporters, the level of destruction cannot be compared.

Second, a stolen election is the most egregious act upon ALL citizens of the country.

Try harder.

I tried to keep the topic as open ended as I could and give members a chance to discuss. This site is all about discussing controversial topics so having a bit of it can be useful, no?


Every day I wake up thankful, and in Canada.

Do you think Canada is immune to similar changes in the next few decades?

@Admin Absolutely not

Never happen in the dominion of Canada.
Much better system , it’s called loving each other and not getting upset over politics.
We are free to vote for any party when we have elections with no problem at all.
You need more than just 2 parties to vote for.
For decades now one party demonized the current ruling party. Back and forth never working together. That’s USA for you , filled with problems, then allow their media to upset citizens.

Another great day to wake up in Canada.....
I know this cause I’m in Windsor and can see America
2 media’s both trying in different ways to scare us.
Further into Canada, where I once lived for many years, even less fear and protest.
America keeps trying to drag us down into messy wars and dirt politics.
Never works.
Sigh.. another great day in Canada


The MAGAs are so unfit they just die from heart attacks.


Proud boy poses with guns, turns up and just dies.

Trumps fans murderd a cop too by the looks of things.

Must’ve made your day then, didn’t it?

@parsifal No, i think it's sad these guys have killed a policeman and are so unfit they have heart attacks and die trying to storm a building.

Always larping. always failing.

@bastion Suuure they were Trump supporters!


@bastion []

@TheMiddleWay Antifa were ”leading the charge”

They’ve been identified.

Hello parsifal, There is no doubt in my mind that there was a pro-Trump "mob" at the Capitol. True Trump supporters should be honest and brave enough to condemn the mob for their unlawful actions and not justifying them.

@Naomi and people in general should stop gratuitously saying Trump supporters when, in fact, they weren’t’s simple - by their actions you will know them.... but even simple is too much for some

@parsifal I think there were some Antifa who led them on. The same who showed up at the George Floyd protests while they were still peaceful and urged others to throw bricks. But that's no excuse for the protesters at either event.
For protests to stay peaceful and mass disobedience remain civil they need a moral leader--not just for pep talks--but to keep the group from turning into an angry mob.
I supported both protests myself. Until they turned violent. Ends do not justify the means!

@parsifal I believe that some mob members are still Trump supporters but they have different tactics to have their voices heard, and those tactics include unlawful actions. (I don't think you are one of them, are you...?) Also, I think that what you and I are saying here also applies to leftists; I believe that many leftists in the US don't support Woke progressive Democrats and they don't like being tarred with the same brush as SJWs, BLM activists, etc. Similarly, in the UK, traditional Labour supporters (the left) don't mix with the Woke left who go on about identity politics and critical theories.


You have a naive understanding of what a Trump supporter is.

For years I was a hanger on in a mostly conservative forum. Of the hundred or so conservative members there maybe two actually liked Trump. Most despised him because Trump is not conservative by personality type. That said they all voted for him accept for a couple really partisan Republicans. Most people that voted for Trump were not really voting for him but against crooked Clinton and Beijing Biden.

When you see someone wearing a MAGA hat that is not a sign of support for Trump the person but an act of rebellion against the establishment that sold out the working class.

Personally my experience is that people are very naive about politics in general. I supported Trump for one reason, China. China just as well be the second coming of the Nazis. Look at the similarities. Forced labor camps for minorities, brutal suppression of political dissent, dictator for life, aggression and territorial expansion against it's neighbors, state controlled capitalism, military expansion, socialism, official racism, regular party purges, a too cozy relationship with the globalist and Western elites, extreme nationalism, no freedom of speech and vicious secret police, an extraordinary feeling of being locked out of their proper place in the world, I could go on but you get the idea.

Why is China so dangerous? Beyond it's obvious military and industrial capacity it is a host for really bad ideas that are catching hold in the West such as social credit scores. It's not that the dim wits in Western countries didn't come with it on their own but China helps finance the kind of globalism that makes it "practical".

Simply put a vote for any establishment or left leaning politician is a vote for a dystopian future. We live in a time when the elites simply are not very elite or imaginative.


i agree, antifa may have been there but nobody including them anticipated a virtual wave in of the Gov building, hence the bigtime goofing of rather than the usual graffiti and vandalism of antifa/blm.

@CookieMonster they murdered a policeman.


Hello CookieMonster. I find it pathetic that Trump supporters blame Antifa and BLM for leading them into the building. They seem to be saying that "Antifa/BLM made us do it." They are all grown-ups. They could've said to themselves "Hang on, this isn't right," and stopped themselves storming into the building. They're responsible for their own actions.

@Naomi they murdered a policeman and trampled a woman to death.

it's hilarious how the trump fans online won't even condemn the trump fans killing people - instead they invent stuff about BLM and antifa.

it's a cult. it's a really stupid cult.

It's a cult. Yes, I'm beginning to think so, too. It's common that protest marches are hijacked and peaceful protesters are misled by people with ill intentions. But at the end of the day they allowed those unlawful actions to take place. Why is it so difficult to be honest and admit it? I don't understand.


There is a video of security letting them in through a side enterence.


@CookieMonster I recently learned that police officers are allowed to join unions in America. (As you know, they take the oath of impartiality in the UK, although their higher-ups have been a bit woke lately.) I think that the unionisation of the police does nothing but to contribute to the extreme polarisation of American society.

@Naomi But they elect police chiefs. Counter balance.

@CookieMonster True, but they still take the oath of impartiality which is an important principle.

@Naomi they can't be honest because it's a cult.

@bastion Or they are so deluded that they honestly can't see any wrong doing... I don't know. 😟

@Naomi Kevin Sorbo's twitter about this really summed it up.

  1. this is historic!
  2. it's happening!
  3. woah guys play nicely!
  4. it was antifa.

totally sums up the current way it works with media figures encouraging idiots then pretending it was actually their enemies.

"Personally my experience is that people are very naive about politics in general." Exactly! Hence the rally at the Capitol, consisting of "naive" Trump supporters who were so easily led by those with ill intentions.


Intentions are relative and subjective. Patriots think the communist are evil and communist think the patriots are evil. It is generally a mistake to judge people instead of their actions, one of the reasons justice is blind. It's why civil disobedience comes with a price tag for those that engage in it so as to maintain order. John Brown was hanged for trying to end slavery.

John Brown: America’s First Terrorist?


"It is generally a mistake to judge people instead of their actions." "John Brown was hanged for trying to end slavery."

Maybe so in Jon Brown's case but I wouldn't generalise his case. In most cases people/criminals are judged based on the action/crime they committed.

Here is a good example:
One of the most startling images, quickly shared across social media, shows a man dressed with a painted face, fur hat and horns, holding an American flag.
He's been identified as Jake Angeli, a well-known supporter of the baseless conspiracy theory QAnon. He calls himself the QAnon Shaman.


One would be a fool to defend the pro-Trump rally as a whole consisting individuals like him, not to mention rationalising the behaviour of individuals like him.


I specifically picked John Brown because he was as crazy as any QAnon believer. The point I'm making is that there is no relationship between how "crazy" someone is and the righteousness of their cause. They have to be evaluated independently.

Throughout my life I have noticed that people are particularly poor at judging who is and who is not a "good person". I would rather trust my dog. Most people seem to think they can trust their instincts (feelings) yet they have little understanding of the nature of those instincts or for that matter self awareness. We are designed by evolution to lie and to believe in lies, especially lies we tell ourselves. It is part of being a social animal.


Violence begats violence. But some AH's are just begging to get their faces slapped with an axe!

angelo Level 8 Jan 8, 2021

Warranted? I wrote a post about this, in IDW/Slug. Whether it's too much alcohol, too much abuse, a fondness for abuse, hurt feelings, a dangerous situation, political differences, political zealotry, righteousness, fear --- any stressor has the potential to trigger violence. It's all in the application and the dose. When that happens, forget the rightness or wrongness of it, forget Good and Evil---we're in the realm of inevitabilities.


The only similarity is that in both cases, the same group was responsible.


Political violence is something I've been extremely confused on, especially this past year. I don't understand the point at all. When protesters, all over the world, took to the streets to protest police brutality, the first thing I thought was "why" and "I don't understand". When I saw the majority of MSM and Democratic politicians downplaying the riots, I was baffled.

So, the beginning of 2020 I opened up my first Twitter account. It was like looking at a completely different America than the one I live in, good and bad. I also got a Slug account because I wanted to actually understand the news. Before the mass protests and COVID, I wasn't online much at all, and I never dug into politics via social media before, so I really had no idea how to navigate it or even fully understood the language used.

My perspective may be limited, considering it's coming from a rather narrow period of time. I think individually, we aren't that much different from one another. So, I don't understand the tribalism or extremist behaviors that pit us against one another, rather than having an actual conversation or debate. It's strange.

After the events that unfolded Jan 6, Twitter and Parler are being flooded with very heated "us v them" takes. There is real fear of those who exist in our country that don't share the same ideologies. I don't think it's enough to say "half" are violent, but half of our population is absolutely going to be affected greatly depending on which direction out political representatives choose to take. So far, the Democrats have the wheel, and they are turning very sharply to the left.

Violence is never warranted. This may be overly simplistic, but it's just the way I feel. However, violence has been has been perceived as warrented if it's for a good cause. Police brutality is a good cause to protest. However, many of our politicians have skated around the inevitable violence that comes from prolonged protests. A free and fair election is a good cause to protest. However, many politicians have skated around the very real possibility that this could get violent.

I'm concerned how political violence is not only increasing, it's almost normalized, at least from what I can ascertain online. Portland is... oof. I mean, violence isn't the answer, but placating to violent offenders is much worse.

Again, I'm also just trying to wrap my head around it all. I'm not in any way sure one way or another. I'm more than willing to say "I don't get it". I've been saying this for the last 5+ years. It's just I haven't actually tried to understand until a little over a year ago.


Only non violent protests are acceptable. All of the protests that turned violent last year and the other day at the Capitol should have been ended with extreme prejudice. Violent protests should not be tolerated.


I don't think I have more to add than what others have already said in the replies! For defense, justifiably. And as I mentioned in my reply to your previous question, I'm a reformist, until it's not possible and you reach the point when you have to defend, the point of why the 2nd amendment exists. Which I'm not sure we are at now!


How can MAGAs protest strategically? Proposed protest strategies:

Be funny. Make memes, especially with statues. Wear costumes, especially ones
with pop culture references. CookieMonster pointed out that the Capitol rally
was a meme mother load. Win the humor war. Make a highlight reel of memes and videos. Make a highlight reel of violence
at leftist protests.

It's not a protest, it's a rally. MAGA rallies.

A rally needs a leader to be effective. Appoint a Rally Marshall. Have a command center
to coordinate the rally, with lots of cameras streaming to the command center. Get the
internet crowd involved. In a sports broadcast, there is a crew examining the camera feeds and
selecting which one to broadcast.

A leader is necessary to enforce a policy of non-violence. Make it policy to excommunicate
anyone who initiates violence. Not that leftist rallies are leaderless and they have
no mechanism to enforce nonviolence. Praise Martin Luther King for the fact that he
had control over his rally and he kept it nonviolent.

Have a MAGA buddy system, so that MAGAs can be distinguished from infiltrators.
Stream video to a command center where there is a team identifying MAGAs and infiltrators.
If an infiltrator is identified, loudly point it out. Keep a database of violent leftists
and Antifa members.

Rally often. Make it a party. Make rallies a part of MAGA social life.

Rally in iconic locations. Seizing the Capitol was glorious. Best party since the
Boston Tea Party. Let's call it the Capitol Tea Party.

Be seen. Parade around cities so that democrats see it. Make sound.

It's a fine sports skill to be able to induce an opposing player into committing a
penalty. Also, it only counts if the refs see it.

Many policemen are MAGA sympathizers. Get them in on it. There are videos from the
Capitol Tea Party where policemen encouraged ralliers to storm the Capitol, and then
joined them.

Carry chalk and engage in MAGA graffiti.

Many prominent democrats called for the execution of the MAGA protesters. Call
attention to this.


It's an open question as to what should be done if leftist protesters invade a rural
MAGA neighborhood and initiate violence. Be prepared in advance. Organize a local militia.
Be able to assemble as fast as minutemen.

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